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	<title>Comments on: Charismatic Cleanup on Aisle 6!</title>
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	<description>Live your faith.  Share your life.</description>
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		<title>By: Stephen McGhee</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2008/08/charismatic-cleanup-on-aisle-6/comment-page-1/#comment-456392</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen McGhee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 07:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree that the scripture can’t mean now what it never meant then. But there’s a big difference in saying ‘we can understand Jesus better by understanding the Jewish context that he acted and spoke in’, and saying ‘we need to take on the yoke of the old covenant and live by it’s precepts.’</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the scripture can’t mean now what it never meant then. But there’s a big difference in saying ‘we can understand Jesus better by understanding the Jewish context that he acted and spoke in’, and saying ‘we need to take on the yoke of the old covenant and live by it’s precepts.’</p>
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		<title>By: Kingdom Leadership After Lakeland Part 2-Considering Various Sources … &#171; futuristguy</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2008/08/charismatic-cleanup-on-aisle-6/comment-page-1/#comment-453488</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingdom Leadership After Lakeland Part 2-Considering Various Sources … &#171; futuristguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] 19 - Brother Maynard. Charismatic Cleanup on Aisle 6! Brother Maynard pulls out the statements of problems and solutions from Dan Edelen&#8217;s series [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 19 &#8211; Brother Maynard. Charismatic Cleanup on Aisle 6! Brother Maynard pulls out the statements of problems and solutions from Dan Edelen&#8217;s series [...]</p>
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		<title>By: yeshua follower</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2008/08/charismatic-cleanup-on-aisle-6/comment-page-1/#comment-452163</link>
		<dc:creator>yeshua follower</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I was a leader in the charismatic thing for 20 years and I can tell you that it is not only in error but solely from Satan. On the first subject of lack of humility a better way to say this is suffering from spritual pride. This is the same spirit that killed Jesus in the day. This blind completely and causes the person to fall into the occult, not only a deviation form the faith, but the the wrong way on the other side. Every Charismatic leader that I know, is absorbed in themsleves and there small little body but would do nothing for them, simply mentally masturbate about all the new words they have received which have never changed anything looking back. These same people, will not have any time for you as they will be too absorbed in the false chosen elect attitude. This subject in enough to deal with...a true follower of Yeshua, will be humble and not all blown up on himself. Todd Bentley is a messenger form Satan and all his works are demonic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was a leader in the charismatic thing for 20 years and I can tell you that it is not only in error but solely from Satan. On the first subject of lack of humility a better way to say this is suffering from spritual pride. This is the same spirit that killed Jesus in the day. This blind completely and causes the person to fall into the occult, not only a deviation form the faith, but the the wrong way on the other side. Every Charismatic leader that I know, is absorbed in themsleves and there small little body but would do nothing for them, simply mentally masturbate about all the new words they have received which have never changed anything looking back. These same people, will not have any time for you as they will be too absorbed in the false chosen elect attitude. This subject in enough to deal with&#8230;a true follower of Yeshua, will be humble and not all blown up on himself. Todd Bentley is a messenger form Satan and all his works are demonic.</p>
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		<title>By: Some bloggy things&#8230; &#171; A Deconstructed Christian</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2008/08/charismatic-cleanup-on-aisle-6/comment-page-1/#comment-447087</link>
		<dc:creator>Some bloggy things&#8230; &#171; A Deconstructed Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 03:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subversiveinfluence.com/wordpress/?p=1773#comment-447087</guid>
		<description>[...] Brother Maynard cleans up some charismatic mess [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Brother Maynard cleans up some charismatic mess [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Winton</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2008/08/charismatic-cleanup-on-aisle-6/comment-page-1/#comment-446954</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Winton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As far as the convo about interpreting OT/NT, I think it is important to say that the NT hearers had the Hebrew story in mind as they listened. Even if they were gentiles, one can assume that they were being immersed into the story that had in-formed NT writers (Paul, for example). This may seem like a common sense thing to say (or perhaps it falls into the rubric of &quot;take an understanding of what the OT meant to its original hearers and then read the NT&quot;), but the failure to make this correction has resulted many times in an a-contextual reading of the NT and its language (i.e., making it look more like a modern evangelical dialogue, leaving out the Hebrew savior and his language).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as the convo about interpreting OT/NT, I think it is important to say that the NT hearers had the Hebrew story in mind as they listened. Even if they were gentiles, one can assume that they were being immersed into the story that had in-formed NT writers (Paul, for example). This may seem like a common sense thing to say (or perhaps it falls into the rubric of &#8220;take an understanding of what the OT meant to its original hearers and then read the NT&#8221;), but the failure to make this correction has resulted many times in an a-contextual reading of the NT and its language (i.e., making it look more like a modern evangelical dialogue, leaving out the Hebrew savior and his language).</p>
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		<title>By: M.joshua</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2008/08/charismatic-cleanup-on-aisle-6/comment-page-1/#comment-446634</link>
		<dc:creator>M.joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subversiveinfluence.com/wordpress/?p=1773#comment-446634</guid>
		<description>Oh wow. This is good. I harmonize with all of the perceived problems and solutions and have felt them deeply as a person serving as a part of a &quot;Charismatic&quot; church and a participant with the emerging conversation. This also really helps me understand a lot better what is meant by &quot;post-charismatic&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh wow. This is good. I harmonize with all of the perceived problems and solutions and have felt them deeply as a person serving as a part of a &#8220;Charismatic&#8221; church and a participant with the emerging conversation. This also really helps me understand a lot better what is meant by &#8220;post-charismatic&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Brother Maynard</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2008/08/charismatic-cleanup-on-aisle-6/comment-page-1/#comment-446619</link>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subversiveinfluence.com/wordpress/?p=1773#comment-446619</guid>
		<description>Yes -- the first thing is to understand what it meant then; our response comes later in the application of the word.  In this case, you&#039;re quite right about the purity laws (thankfully!).  An understanding of why they were given and what God was getting at for that time will still give us a good indication of timeless principles... and in this area we find connections to Jesus.  &quot;An eye for an eye&quot; in the OT was God&#039;s injunction to let the punishment fit the crime and not go beyond it -- he was saying they were to restrain themselves from blood vengeance in this area.  Jesus comes along and says that what God&#039;s heart really is would be for forgiveness... &lt;em&gt;complete&lt;/em&gt; restraint from vengeance.  They&#039;re actually saying the same thing, but one can&#039;t see that without understanding the original OT context first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8212; the first thing is to understand what it meant then; our response comes later in the application of the word.  In this case, you&#8217;re quite right about the purity laws (thankfully!).  An understanding of why they were given and what God was getting at for that time will still give us a good indication of timeless principles&#8230; and in this area we find connections to Jesus.  &#8220;An eye for an eye&#8221; in the OT was God&#8217;s injunction to let the punishment fit the crime and not go beyond it &#8212; he was saying they were to restrain themselves from blood vengeance in this area.  Jesus comes along and says that what God&#8217;s heart really is would be for forgiveness&#8230; <em>complete</em> restraint from vengeance.  They&#8217;re actually saying the same thing, but one can&#8217;t see that without understanding the original OT context first.</p>
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		<title>By: trevor</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2008/08/charismatic-cleanup-on-aisle-6/comment-page-1/#comment-446604</link>
		<dc:creator>trevor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subversiveinfluence.com/wordpress/?p=1773#comment-446604</guid>
		<description>Hmm.  I&#039;ve not really moved in charismatic circles for a while, so I&#039;m not familiar with your example of David&#039;s Tabernacle.   Certainly I agree that the scripture can&#039;t mean now what it never meant then.   But there&#039;s a big difference in saying &#039;we can understand Jesus better by understanding the Jewish context that he acted and spoke in&#039;, and saying &#039;we need to take on the yoke of the old covenant and live by it&#039;s precepts.&#039;  

 I guess we can fall down both on our exegesis - &quot;what did the text mean to it&#039;s original hearers?&quot; and our hermeneutic  - &quot;how do we respond to the text?&quot;   I can understand, say, the Deuteronomy purity laws without then assuming that I&#039;m under an obligation to abstain from shellfish.  I&#039;m not under that obligation, because I&#039;m not a party to the OT covenant. (Actually, I&#039;m antinomian to the extent that I don&#039;t even take the 10 commandments as normative for the Christian, but that&#039;s possibly drifting off-topic.)

Keep up the good work, I&#039;m appreciating your commentary on all this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.  I&#8217;ve not really moved in charismatic circles for a while, so I&#8217;m not familiar with your example of David&#8217;s Tabernacle.   Certainly I agree that the scripture can&#8217;t mean now what it never meant then.   But there&#8217;s a big difference in saying &#8216;we can understand Jesus better by understanding the Jewish context that he acted and spoke in&#8217;, and saying &#8216;we need to take on the yoke of the old covenant and live by it&#8217;s precepts.&#8217;  </p>
<p> I guess we can fall down both on our exegesis &#8211; &#8220;what did the text mean to it&#8217;s original hearers?&#8221; and our hermeneutic  &#8211; &#8220;how do we respond to the text?&#8221;   I can understand, say, the Deuteronomy purity laws without then assuming that I&#8217;m under an obligation to abstain from shellfish.  I&#8217;m not under that obligation, because I&#8217;m not a party to the OT covenant. (Actually, I&#8217;m antinomian to the extent that I don&#8217;t even take the 10 commandments as normative for the Christian, but that&#8217;s possibly drifting off-topic.)</p>
<p>Keep up the good work, I&#8217;m appreciating your commentary on all this.</p>
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		<title>By: Brother Maynard</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2008/08/charismatic-cleanup-on-aisle-6/comment-page-1/#comment-446573</link>
		<dc:creator>Brother Maynard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subversiveinfluence.com/wordpress/?p=1773#comment-446573</guid>
		<description>Trevor, I think it is more accurate to say that &quot;scripture interprets scripture.&quot;  I would not agree that one must read the NT first to develop a lens for the OT, which leads to the misinterpretation of the OT. A strong hermeneutical maxim is that &quot;it cannot mean now what it never meant then.&quot;  &lt;a href=&quot;/wordpress/?p=1574&quot; title=&quot;Types &amp; Shadows&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I&#039;ve talked about that on this blog before&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I’m thinking about that old types-and-shadows method of biblical interpretation… not too fond of that one. It seems to me that it sets up a situation where only a specialist with particular esoteric insight would be able to “properly” interpret the biblical text -- not to mention that it ignores the principle that the text “cannot mean now what it never meant then.” It seems in some ways a gnostic idea that the text would contain hidden knowledge that later enlightenment would reveal.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Charismatics &lt;em&gt;love&lt;/em&gt; their types and shadows, and that needs to go:  it&#039;s &lt;em&gt;eisegesis&lt;/em&gt; rather than &lt;em&gt;exegesis&lt;/em&gt; (reading &lt;em&gt;into&lt;/em&gt; the text rather than &lt;em&gt;from&lt;/em&gt; the text).

The way it works for scripture to interpret scripture it to take an understanding of what the OT meant &lt;em&gt;to its original hearers&lt;/em&gt; and then read the NT.  Understanding the OT background causes the NT to explode with a &quot;bigger-picture&quot; meaning, which &lt;em&gt;only then&lt;/em&gt; allows a deeper understanding of some of the OT themes.  But you have to start chronologically... when Jesus said a particular thing to a Jewish audience, &lt;em&gt;why&lt;/em&gt; did he say it, or &lt;em&gt;why&lt;/em&gt; were they offended?  Understand that from the OT and it informs what&#039;s going on in the NT, which (only) then deepens one&#039;s understanding of God&#039;s intent in the OT.

I know it sounds like only a very subtle change I&#039;m suggesting, but it&#039;s an important one because it has led to misreading and misinterpreting the OT, and doctrines are then built on the misunderstanding... like David&#039;s Tabernacle and all kinds of weirdness.  One must begin with the OT, then the NT, and only then reconsider the OT... but the reconsideration &lt;em&gt;must not&lt;/em&gt; do violence to the way the original hearers would have interpreted it.  I highly doubt that Moses would say, &quot;Here&#039;s the &lt;em&gt;Torah&lt;/em&gt;, which is good stuff -- and it&#039;ll be even better in 8,000 years when your descendants &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; start to understand it.&quot;

One last bit and then I&#039;ll stop.  The OT speaks of a messiah to come, and some of the characteristics of this messiah are given.  Understanding what the Jewish people were waiting for based on their understanding of the OT at the time helps us see how Jesus fulfills the criteria -- and in some cases, how the Jewish nation missed it.  This way, when Jesus quotes a particular bit of OT scripture or the events of the gospels allude to something in the OT, we can understand that as a messianic claim.  Remove that understanding, and the messianic proof is down to what Jesus said and the miracles.  Take those two proofs into the modern day -- &quot;hypothetically,&quot; let&#039;s say someone calls himself an apostle and a healing miracle occurs when he prays. If those two proofs &lt;em&gt;alone&lt;/em&gt; were adequate for Jesus and him, it would add implied credence to whatever our hypothetical apostle teaches... no matter how outlandish or heretical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trevor, I think it is more accurate to say that &#8220;scripture interprets scripture.&#8221;  I would not agree that one must read the NT first to develop a lens for the OT, which leads to the misinterpretation of the OT. A strong hermeneutical maxim is that &#8220;it cannot mean now what it never meant then.&#8221;  <a href="/wordpress/?p=1574" title="Types &#038; Shadows" rel="nofollow">I&#8217;ve talked about that on this blog before</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>I’m thinking about that old types-and-shadows method of biblical interpretation… not too fond of that one. It seems to me that it sets up a situation where only a specialist with particular esoteric insight would be able to “properly” interpret the biblical text &#8212; not to mention that it ignores the principle that the text “cannot mean now what it never meant then.” It seems in some ways a gnostic idea that the text would contain hidden knowledge that later enlightenment would reveal.</p></blockquote>
<p>Charismatics <em>love</em> their types and shadows, and that needs to go:  it&#8217;s <em>eisegesis</em> rather than <em>exegesis</em> (reading <em>into</em> the text rather than <em>from</em> the text).</p>
<p>The way it works for scripture to interpret scripture it to take an understanding of what the OT meant <em>to its original hearers</em> and then read the NT.  Understanding the OT background causes the NT to explode with a &#8220;bigger-picture&#8221; meaning, which <em>only then</em> allows a deeper understanding of some of the OT themes.  But you have to start chronologically&#8230; when Jesus said a particular thing to a Jewish audience, <em>why</em> did he say it, or <em>why</em> were they offended?  Understand that from the OT and it informs what&#8217;s going on in the NT, which (only) then deepens one&#8217;s understanding of God&#8217;s intent in the OT.</p>
<p>I know it sounds like only a very subtle change I&#8217;m suggesting, but it&#8217;s an important one because it has led to misreading and misinterpreting the OT, and doctrines are then built on the misunderstanding&#8230; like David&#8217;s Tabernacle and all kinds of weirdness.  One must begin with the OT, then the NT, and only then reconsider the OT&#8230; but the reconsideration <em>must not</em> do violence to the way the original hearers would have interpreted it.  I highly doubt that Moses would say, &#8220;Here&#8217;s the <em>Torah</em>, which is good stuff &#8212; and it&#8217;ll be even better in 8,000 years when your descendants <em>really</em> start to understand it.&#8221;</p>
<p>One last bit and then I&#8217;ll stop.  The OT speaks of a messiah to come, and some of the characteristics of this messiah are given.  Understanding what the Jewish people were waiting for based on their understanding of the OT at the time helps us see how Jesus fulfills the criteria &#8212; and in some cases, how the Jewish nation missed it.  This way, when Jesus quotes a particular bit of OT scripture or the events of the gospels allude to something in the OT, we can understand that as a messianic claim.  Remove that understanding, and the messianic proof is down to what Jesus said and the miracles.  Take those two proofs into the modern day &#8212; &#8220;hypothetically,&#8221; let&#8217;s say someone calls himself an apostle and a healing miracle occurs when he prays. If those two proofs <em>alone</em> were adequate for Jesus and him, it would add implied credence to whatever our hypothetical apostle teaches&#8230; no matter how outlandish or heretical.</p>
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		<title>By: trevor</title>
		<link>http://subversiveinfluence.com/2008/08/charismatic-cleanup-on-aisle-6/comment-page-1/#comment-446542</link>
		<dc:creator>trevor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subversiveinfluence.com/wordpress/?p=1773#comment-446542</guid>
		<description>One of my wisest teachers said that the best commentary on the Old Testament is the New Testament.  So I agree with Dan - the OT needs to be understood through the lens of the NT.  There&#039;s not much point in talking about, say, the priesthood without reading Hebrews and Peter on the subject - Christ is our High Priest, we are all a royal priesthood.  There&#039;s no point in talking about sacrifices without returning to the cross. There&#039;s no point in talking about the temple without pointing to the resurrection.  

In other words, all of scripture, old and new, points us relentlessly back to Jesus.   Which I guess is Dan&#039;s first point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my wisest teachers said that the best commentary on the Old Testament is the New Testament.  So I agree with Dan &#8211; the OT needs to be understood through the lens of the NT.  There&#8217;s not much point in talking about, say, the priesthood without reading Hebrews and Peter on the subject &#8211; Christ is our High Priest, we are all a royal priesthood.  There&#8217;s no point in talking about sacrifices without returning to the cross. There&#8217;s no point in talking about the temple without pointing to the resurrection.  </p>
<p>In other words, all of scripture, old and new, points us relentlessly back to Jesus.   Which I guess is Dan&#8217;s first point.</p>
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