Yesterday it seems we had something of an impromptu synchroblog going as we offered responses to the antics ministries of John Crowder and Todd Bentley, with the labels of revival that have been tossed around. My thoughts as well as those of Robbymac, Kingdom Grace, and Bill Kinnon were born of an email conversation we had struck up following the thoughts of others, including Andrew Jones (see my earlier post for additional links). I love the graphic that Rob made up, and even Bill’s pic is a good one — he even looks thoughtful. The image on Grace’s post says a lot, and had me thinking about some years back when we were praying for a pastor for the church plant we were undertaking. A friend of mine on the team was famed for saying he’d even follow a donkey, as long as it was God’s donkey. Good line, but as I looked at the circus image, I was struck by the fact that following God’s donkey is alright, but you have to exercise discernment to make sure you don’t end up following the wrong ass. Just a general observation of course, not a characterization of anyone in particular.
Cynthia Clack has some good insights on the mess. I agree with Grace, who said, “I miss corporate expectancy and openness to whatever the Spirit of God might do.” On the other hand, Cynthia’s observation is apt: “Personally, I would be much more likely to believe a movement of the Holy Spirit if everyone was selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.” Cynthia also includes some characteristics of true and false revival. On their own, I wouldn’t necessarily agree with her third, fourth, and fifth points describing false revivals, but taken as a whole they do indicate warning signs. (For example, there were popular preachers during the Great Awakening, which was a genuine revival.)
I’m probably more open to an inexplicable amount of weirdness within what I would still call a genuine move of the Holy Spirit, but my stance is that things tend to go off the rails quickly, and I have difficulty recommending anyone drink from the well once it’s been poisoned. Even if there is more water than poison. Yes, God does some good works (healings, salvations) in the midst of these messes, but I do wonder if there aren’t more casualties… like being a civilian in a time of war. Grace is quite correct in her statements:
As the hype of revival grows, so does the number of people hesitantly hopeful that God might touch their life, that He might hear their plea and have a cure for their need…
While the atmosphere of revival often builds faith, it also creates the notion that one must go to a special location to receive from God. Once there, people will do almost anything to be touched by the guest minister.
It is in this fertile soil of desperation that sincere people are ripe for being taken advantage of, for being abused, and for being led into false teaching.
Thus, it’s those who are weak and desperate that are the likeliest of casualties. Those charismaniacs who are familiar with the whole scene and pride themselves on “mainlining the Holy Spirit” are unlikely to come away wounded. They’ll walk away “pumped up” with claims of greater faith and expectancy.
But I have to ask whether they love their spouses any more. Are they more generous toward those in need — or just toward those engaged in spreading the hype? Are they encouraged to the endurance of a long obedience, or does the hype fade until the next conference?
I confess, in the days I was immersed in renewal — and we were cautious to call it renewal rather than revival, as it didn’t extend beyond the church — we had some wild times. Good times. It was fun, and it was enjoyable. But is that enough? I’d have to say it isn’t wrong, not until you start preaching that everyone needs to have your idea of “fun” if they actually love Jesus. And those who are quick to find a miracle need to be cautious… there was one case of a man who thought that God had turned the fillings in his teeth to gold — until his wife reminded him that his dentist had done that work years ago. Yes, God can do extravagant things for reasons we don’t comprehend… but I suggest that gold dust is a confusing sign and not an indicator (positive or negative) that a work is of God. And it is unwise to glorify confusing “signs.”
I have to stand by what I said yesterday, of course — if these things occur, they should be downplayed. Don’t dismiss them as “not of God,” but be far more afraid of attempts to steer them and leave God less room to maneuver as he sees fit. There are those who would “control” the Holy Spirit… a sure sign that they don’t really know him or the Godhead of whom he is a part. The indicators to me are that such people are not necessarily evil, but certainly lack wisdom and judgment. As such, these are not the best representatives of God for one to follow and flock toward. We could offer many indicators of whether a move of God is genuine or not, and perhaps we should — but my working assumption would be that in most cases, God is doing something that man is attempting to steer. I’m reminded of God’s words through Moses to the people of Israel concerning who is and is not a “real” prophet:
“But you may wonder, ‘How will we know whether or not a prophecy is from the Lord?’ If the prophet speaks in the Lord’s name but his prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the Lord did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without my authority and need not be feared.
This suggests to me that we shouldn’t fear what’s going on or even demand an instant answer as to whether or not it’s God. It’ll all work out in the end. In the meantime, are the people engaged in leading the movement the type of leaders you want to follow?
I’m curious what other think — there’s still time to get in on this impromptu synchro-blog or leave your comments below. What do you think?
I was hoping that somebody would pick up on the picture having “gold” (dust?) all around the hand, which now want to kill off discernment. But perhaps that was a bit too subtle…
I, too, really resonated with Grace’s line: “I miss corporate expectancy and openness to whatever the Spirit of God might do.”
Brother Maynard, I agree with your about the list I posted. I don’t think they were written to be taken individually but as a group and that is what makes it so worrisome. One thing I would change instead of saying that the preacher or leaders become popular is that the preacher or leaders seek their own popularity, advertising themselves.
Barb, I didn’t spend enough time of the FreshFire website, obviously or I would have caught that. It is one aspect that is troubling me. The money that is being spent. I have heard various accounts of how much is being spent to rent out the arena in Lakeland and it varies from $15,000 to $30,000 per night and all I can think is how many people could be fed, how many students could be offered a better education with that money, how many unwed mothers could be provided for. People are seeking their own experience instead of taking care of the others.
Ok, back off my soapbox now . . .
Barb,
Like Cynthia, I didn’t spend a lot of time on Bentley’s site — but you’re right, that practice is deplorable. You don’t peddle the Holy Spirit like Amway — “I’ll pray a blessing for you if you give me $6,000 this year… don’t worry, monthly installments are okay.” Most of us who have written on this in the last couple of days share the perspective of wanting the Holy Spirit and his gifts, but not the glorified weirdness and wacky teaching. Robbymac’s book is as far as I know almost unique in this approach.
Cynthia,
I didn’t think you meant the list as individual litmus tests — if only there was one! Good clarification on the popularity… seeking a name for oneself is not indicative of the fruit of the Spirit. Why do people want to measure and flock to the gifts of the Spirit but not the fruits of the Spirit? *sigh.* Good post, btw.
Today it seems i’m spending some time posting on other blogs than writing my own on the topic at hand. (which is fine.. cuz i like the convo).
Was thinking however on the term “messy” and a old Rick Joyner comment … about things wouldn’t be messy if we didn’t have sheep in the stalls. (paraphrasing) Couldn’t help but wonder about what God is birthing these days… and do we ever have a convenient time for “water to break”.. so to speak.
I do remember the days of renewal.. when a lot was pouring out of God’s fountain and even then, wondered, pondered and speculated. But moving along with the “birth process” thought… just wondering if we prematurely judge things, and if our tendency to do so, is a biased, than how many “moves” of God … have we aborted in our lives, just because the “conception” of it, was out of our time table or comfort zone.
Yes, i agree with the “control” standpoints.. that God may start a fresh fire, but man’s dominion quest is more than far reaching to try and “help” God out, with the grandiose adjectives and verbs, i kinda like it when God leaves us speechless. I agree with Graham Cook’s comment – that he has come to the conclusion that the only superlatives he will use … will only be attributed to His nature.
I also hold to the standpoint… if there is a “litmus test” in response to all of this…. it would have to be…..
1) To whom is the glory given
2) what are the fruits
3) follow the money.
Granted, the latter two are always subjective based upon our endless finite view of things.. But i hope and pray that our view does not shadow His Glory.
Blessings beyond measure,
Cathryn
From what I understand of the term ‘revival’ as it is used in scripture, revival is for the ‘vived’ – the people of God, whereas ‘harvest’ is the expansion of his Kingship and kingdom. But traditionally, we’ve used ‘revival’ for ‘harvest’, so I appreciate the caution and the choice of ‘renewal’ just since most people understand/interpret the word ‘revival’ a certain way. (Interestingly, I watched a bit of the meetings last night and the focus was on healing reproductive organs. Both for individuals, but as a sign in the body of Christ that God would heal our barrenness. That word resonates with me, even if the style of delivery doesn’t).
I don’t live far from where Fresh Fire’s homebase, so I am relatively familiar with them. I have shared the same concerns as Barb. Yes, God is moving. Yes, people are getting healed, and many have come to Christ in several African nations through this ministry, and orphans in Africa are provided for through the help of this ministry. But yes, it’s platform ministry. And yes, there is teaching that is wonky. And yes, there is mixture of Babylon (personal kingdom building). I also remember the healing revivals of the past, and how these men would keep the tumors that fell off of people so that they could compare notes and compete with one another. Whoever had the biggest tumor apparently had the greater anointing. Sad, but true. God is merciful, and as RobbyMac (and others) have said, the moving of God is not an act of validation for everything going on.