The buzz of the day is around the old hyper-charismatic mess. Steve Knight opines on John Crowder who’s big on “Tokin’ the Ghost.” Yes, sadly, you read that right. I don’t know if it’s Todd Bentley-ish or what. Uh-huh. Here’s a few words to the wise should you get to watching the YouTube videos at the ends of those links. (1) When someone claims to have been through a “dark night of the soul” that ends with “spiritual power”, there’s a 99% likelihood they’ve never read St. John of the Cross. (2) When anyone starts using the phrase “whole new dimension” or “whole new level”, run away. (3) When you’re being told to ignore all that you know and believe only in the transrational “greater reality”, it’s time to exercise some sharp discernment… and use your brain. Seriously, claims of “bi-location” where one person appears in two places at the same time? What’s up with that? Did a simpler explanation never occur to anyone, or is it supposed to be a sign of faith to run to the most outlandish explanation? So I guess they’ve got this “revival” thing going on in Lakeland, FL. My email is abuzz this morning, and I’m thinking of Robbymac’s Post-Charismatic? book (link to Amazon.ca).
It’s disturbing to me to realize that at one time I would have been excited by all of this. “Stoked”, even. But those days are behind me now. Thank God. It’s not that I don’t believe that God is capable of unleashing forms of revival that we don’t understand… or that he actually does it from time to time. He did it in the Great Awakening and at other times in history. Of this I have no doubt. I’ve done the Toronto Blessing thing, been to the laughing mecca, and been part of what in my own city was called “Prairie Fire,” a series of city-wide meetings attended by thousands where we had that whole laughing and falling thing going on left, right, and center. And I was on the dishing-it-out end. And just for the record, I never pushed anybody.
Ed Cyzewski speaks in favour of Bentley and the Lakeland revival, but I have mixed feelings. I’ve seen stuff that convinces me that there’s some of God in it despite the weirdness. And not necessarily because of the weirdness, I know too that there’s a lot that isn’t of God. By my observation, at the first hint of any stirring of the Holy Spirit, we seem pretty quick to start talking about airline charters and itinerant ministry. We may think it funny that first-century invalids camped out beside the Pool of Bethesda waiting for an angel to stir the waters, but we think nothing of hopping a flight to Toronto or Florida or Argentina if we get wind of the Holy Spirit moving someplace we’re not. And when he moves someplace where we are, we’re pretty quick to shout about it.
But here’s the thing. This was not the case with the major revivals of old. Manifestations were downplayed, as was even the visible moving of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the focus, and his works in the lives of common folk was the goal and the cause for hope and rejoicing. Not open visions of heaven by spokespersons. And not outlandish claims of visiting Paul in the third heaven where he lives in a cabin and tells visitors that he co-authored the book of Hebrews with Abraham the patriarch. Angels were not the focus, nor were miraculous healings, large offerings, or claims of strange supernatural occurrences. David Brainerd saw some significant instances of the Holy Spirit meddling in natural affairs, yet it barely gets a mention in his journal.
So my take is, sure, God can do this kind of thing… but if he should ever do it in my midst or yours, be quick to go with that whole “messianic silence” stance and shut up about it until you have some very clear understanding about why it’s happening. Rather than spend all your energy preaching about whatever happened and “how you too can have it in your church,” figure out what God wants to do in your midst and put your energy there. If he wants it to spread, leave that with him. Did we think he was capable of landing and starting a mass revival in one geographic place on earth, but not of spreading it around a little without our help? Should this ever happen in your midst, you’ll have to realize that (a) it’s got nothing to do with you or any of your supposed meritorious acts, and (2) you are no wiser, more gifted, or of greater intelligence after the visitation than you were before. You’re the same old crack(ed)pot. The upshot is that I strongly suspect that most of what God wanted to do in Toronto, Winnipeg, Brownsville, Lakeland, Saskatoon, and anywhere else you can name is largely subverted and aborted when it was commandeered by people trying to control it, spread it, and make names for themselves. I think that God continues to honour the hunger in some of the folk who flock there, but it seems to me that the percentage of what’s God versus what isn’t tends to diminish over time. Trouble is, you often can’t spot the difference.
What do you think?
Good words. I think I’m coming at the revival from the standpoint of a non-charismatic, so I’m calling off the non-charismatic hounds from attacking it. It seems you are calling off the pro-charismatic hounds from missing out on Jesus in the midst of this, and I think that is a real problem we face. It’s easy to get caught up in the stuff that’s happening and miss the God who is behind the stuff.
Thanks for your insights here. It’s good to have someone dig into this from the perspective of having been deeply involved in some of this. I have not been at a revival like this, but I have been involved in similar manifestations on a small scale. So I’ve seen the good it can do, but have not seen the abuse that can happen.
All the same, I find it frustrating when people immediately dismiss something when they hear the word “revival,” just as you must get frustrated when you see people leap on a plane the moment someone says “revival”! Ah, the wonderful extremes of our fragile Christendom!
I think I appreciate you weighing in on this and sharing some of your personal story/reflections on all of it. Thanks, Brother Maynard!
Yep, I’ve done all this stuff and now feel very uncomforable with it. I don’t not believe, but I winder how much is truly GOD.
And I absolutely have to ask, Saskatoon!? Did you just pull that out of a hat or was there something going on my old hometown?
So, you guys are god-sends to me as I try to sort all this out and figure out what’s real — up to and including a call to public ministry. I’ve been in all of this too– and appreciate others with both a discerning and intellectual quotient weighing in on all this. Gone be guilt had for not jumping once again might be just another carny-wagon.
Just look at Corinth
KSG, that’d be the revival of the early 70’s with the Sutera Twins. A better (or more well-known) example from Saskatchewan might have been the Latter Rain movement born in North Battleford.
So much to sort out …..thanks for a affirming…..read.
Very balanced treatment by you.
It appears to me that over and over again, members of the body of Christ will do anything, travel any length to avoid the central issue of personal Christianity…
that we find the courage (in God) to lay our lives down and live to God’s purpose – as most often and easily expressed in the commandment to:
“Love the Lord Thy God with all thy heart, strength and might…Oh, and…love your neighbor [with a love that considers their life, their welfare and their pains as equal to/ or greater than yours] as yourself.
Losing sight of this, not giving time to meditation upon God’s word in solitude, we become the victims of sophisticated Information Marketers fronting as “Christian leaders” and “apostles” and marketing events labelled as “revivals, outpourings and Christian conferences”.
God help us till he comes.
Since no one has posted in a year, my comments probably won’t be read, but I am glad to have a place to finally have my say. I belonged to a church called Sunnyvale Chapel in Waterford, MI. I was a trusting younger Christian who thought all the leaders and preachers and evangelists were true and honest men and women. Well, I guess there were problems in paradise of which I was not aware, but…..when the Sutera Brothers were invited to conduct a revival in our church all the rotten stuff sure came out….people in the pulpit confessing their jealousy and dislike, for this one and that one and crying for forgiveness. The problem I have with that kind of thing is, if I have damaged or hurt someone and they know it I should apologize and confess to them and ask for forgiveness…and attempt to fix whatever I did wrong. But…if I just had some rotten thoughts about someone and they didn’t know it and I never harmed anyone but my own conscience, let me confess to God and ask His forgiveness. Why should I shock and hurt someone who was none the wiser and make that person feel demeaned and bad because I disliked him? That revival torn the church to pieces….it eventually resulted in preacher changes and meannesses you would not believe. The church no longer exists. I have said in my own mind for years that the Sutera Brother’s teachings and preaching ruined that church. Their main focus was on the Holy Ghost and you didn’t hear much about the other two parts of the Trinity. I may be wrong, but I don’t think so. I have wanted nothing to do with Charismatics from that time forward.
You said it, Mary! You don’t get over your ill-will by giving it to someone else… that’s not how it’s supposed to work.
I think a lot of what goes on in the Charismatic movement grieves the Holy Spirit. A lot of us post-Charismatics aren’t post-Holy-Spirit. We just noticed that the Holy Spirit tends to point toward Jesus, not miracles, and not the guy on stage — whoever he might be this week.
Brother Maynard,
Thank you for your encouraging note. You hit the nail right on the head and I agree with your statements completely.
I remember when one of my girlfriends from church, who was kind of the type to be swayed by every wind that blew, was trying to get me into the charismatic movement. That was years ago when it first became popular. I never could see the attraction and thought I was just a boring dud who couldn’t get interested in anything new. After years of seeing the actions and their results in some of those folks, I am kinda glad I was a “boring dud.” ;-)
Thanks for writing and may God bless you.
Mary B.
Mary,
I was also a member of Sunnyvale Chaple.
I remember the Sutera twins but evidently I was quite young because I don’t remeber the problems you mentioned until Dr. V.L.Martin left. Then I remember everybody wanted to follow him and not the new pastor.there was a mess at that time from which It never really recovered.
My mother stayed for many years well until pastor Clouse left. We kept contact with many all the way up to the change in name…
I believe there are still some of the old members still there.
Were the Suteras charismatic? if so why did they even invite them to come?
love to talk with you more.
Dee