Len Hjalmarson has some thoughts on Good to Great, which I mentioned recently. Collins identifies a certain type of successful CEO which exhibits what he calls “Level 5 Leadership.” Len links to a Fast Company article from 2001 which provides a good overview of Collins’ book, which includes a section on how change occurs. I find not only Collins’ thinking on effective leadership to be of note, but also his outline of how change occurs. Slowly, gradually, gaining momentum… until the tipping point (not his phrase, I’m mixing metaphors again). I think this perspective is instructive for the missional church, on both counts.
13 Responses to “Jim Collins on Leadership & Change”
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November 3rd, 2006 at 2:05 pm
be of note, but also his outline of how change occurs. Slowly, gradually, gaining momentum… until the tipping point (not his phrase, I’m mixing metaphors again). I think this perspective is instructive for the missional church, on both counts. by Brother Maynard at November 03, 2006 04:47 AM
November 3rd, 2006 at 1:35 pm
be of note, but also his outline of how change occurs. Slowly, gradually, gaining momentum… until the tipping point (not his phrase, I’m mixing metaphors again). I think this perspective is instructive for the missional church, on both counts. by Brother Maynard at November 03, 2006 04:47 AM
November 3rd, 2006 at 8:16 am
Brother Maynard,
As a business owner, I wish I’d read Collins’ Good to Great and Built to Last twenty years ago (had they been available) but I am very cautious in recommending them as Church Leadership books. In fact, I’ve seen them used to justify ridiculous BHAG’s (Big Hairy Audacious Goals) on the part of leaders who have self-identified as Level 5 leaders.
I’m shocked at how many copies of this book I’ve seen on different church leaders’ bookshelves. And I echo Alan Roxburgh in an unpublished video interview I did with him when he says about books by people like Collins and Ron Heifetz, that we too often “baptise these books with bible verses.” I appreciate Collins’ insight into corporations (although another writer and consultant, Tom Peters, completely disagrees with him) but I’m concerned when we see his book(s) as manuals for church leadership. Insight into how change occurs in corporate environments, perhaps, but as far as being adequate descriptions of church leadership – a Level 5 leader doesn’t line up with what Jesus describes in Matthew 20:25-28.
As an aside, Collins has written a monograph of Good to Great for non-profits – Good to Great and the Social Sectors.
Regarding missional leadership, might I recommend Roxburgh and Fred Romanuk’s book, The Missional Leader.
November 3rd, 2006 at 7:02 pm
I picked up Good to Great about a week ago and I’m finding a lot of links about the information as it applies to personal goals, non-profit (I read the monograph on the social service sector before the book, an order I don’t recommend), and the church.
Bill, I’m quite struck by your comment that Level 5 leadership is out of line with Mat. 20:25-28. My own reaction was how similar they are. Level 5 leaders are personally humble and put the good of the company over their own aspirations. In the book it also talks about executives who gave their workers privileges and benefits that they themselves didn’t have. A servant leadership model runs through the book, so I’m not sure where you see incongruity.
November 3rd, 2006 at 9:44 pm
I would tend to see Level 5 Leadership as more like a business implimentation of servant leadership rather than a model for biblical leadership. It doesn’t purport to be that, and though I see some parallels I don’t think it’s a good idea to force the comparison to run in the wrong direction. I am also troubled at the widespread use of Collins for church purposes, maingly BHAGs as you say. A “spiritualized BHAG” might still just be presumption and personal ambition. The contexts using Collins in the church seem to be more Willow Creed Pastor-as-CEO types, and I’m uncomfortable with that whole scene. As Jude says, I do see a servant leadership them running through the book, but that might tend to be ignored in the Pastor-as-CEO type of thinking. I don’t think the leadership the Collins describes is incongrouous with the New Testament, but it’s only a small slice of the picture… but it doesn’t try to be any more than what it is.
Recently I’ve been thinking about the flywheel and the idea of the emerging/missional church gaining momentum, which I really like.
For the record, I read the book as a business owner looking for its insights for business purposes… whatever I’m taking from it for church leadership contexts is for me secondary and incidental. I’m not sure I would recommend it for anyone looking for insight specifically and only for the church… for those who just want a good overview for that purpose, read the article I linked. For those interested in the business angle, I can’t recommend it more highly than to say it’s the most important book I’ve read since Cluetrain.
November 5th, 2006 at 11:44 am
Hi. Brother Maynard,
Rob suggested that I contact you. I’ve been watching the site since spring.
He said that we each had some common experiences re the ch and ch leadership.
I am continuing research and would like some contact and input from others.
Maybe you could contact me via email. Thanks.
The challenge of godly leadership and its requirements continue to challenge the thinking and paradigms of leadership by many. Keep at it.
November 5th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Jesus himself drew upon business analogies – but didn’t use business as a basis for designing the kingdom. I hear BM (that is a rather unfortunate initial set for your pseudonym, isn’t it) on making sure one doesn’t run the comparison the wrong way. I see it as when one follows biblical principles, even when not necessarily trying to be biblical, it tends to work. I think it’s unfortunate that ethics didn’t enter into the topic at all, and that Phillip Morris was included as a great company. Nonetheless, it is a fabulous book in identifying principles that will help any individual or organization get where they want to go.
November 5th, 2006 at 9:20 pm
At the risk of sounding facetious (I know, I know, that would be so unlike me…):
Can anyone tell the difference between Willowback’s “Pastor-as-CEO”, the New Apostlic Reformation’s self-identified “apostles & prophets of the city and/or nation”, and Collins’ Level Five leaders?
I say that because, as someone who was royally “burnt” (or you can insert more colourful metaphors if you prefer) by the pastor-as-CEO types, I clearly recall them all carrying and quoting Collins’ Good To Great like it was the fifth Gospel.
November 5th, 2006 at 10:35 pm
Rob,
In the place I came from, the pastors were seen carrying the Bible around and quoting it plus the leader’s/”apostle’s” interpretation as if it were the fifth gospel. Incessant quoting of Collins in this way proves to me that they don’t “get” it and that they are not operating as level 5 leaders.
Yes, since Collins wrote for a business crowd about business, there is a lot that the CEO-aspiring pastor will latch onto. What he says about leadership is mostly contained within a single chapter, and it’s almost an aside about the common qualities of successful leaders/CEOs. Some of the major commonalities are that they were largely unknown, they often rose from within the ranks of the company, and they are incredibly humble, not needing the limelight. They point to others following succeses, and they point to themselves following failures. How many CEO-aspiring pastors does this sound like? Precious few… or none, I’d say.
Don’t let their use of Collins’ work turn you off of him. There are some real nuggets in there about managing change… change from good to great. Let’s say the inherited church is the “good” but we’re hoping to make something great. So what do we need to know about how change takes place? Now you’re digging for the right stuff in Collins’ book. If you want to know how to be a great grand-poobah CEO leader, there’s stuff in there… but if that’s what you’re looking for, you won’t like what you find, and you won’t be properly equipped to negotiate the change being considered. That’s the issue with so many of these CEO-aspiring pastors, they’re not on the same page as this, and they can’t even see it.
Jude,
I tend to much prefer “Bro.M.” for obvious reasons. The inclusion of Phillip Morris is discomforting from an ethical standpoint, but considering what Collins is on about and why, it must be acknowledged that PM is or was a very well-run company in the timeframe, and as such they help to inform Collins’ findings. This is one of things that’s so valuable about his book… it’s not a data sample of qualifying companies, it’s based on all of them.
I’m curious about the monograph though, as I haven’t read it. Does it genuinely add much for nonprofits, or just change a couple of the terms involved (like changing “profit” in the hedgehog concept)? Mostly wondering if some of those shifts or adaptations are fairly obvious even without the companion piece.
November 5th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
Robbymac, might I say, moi aussi.
I’m a fan of Collins for business. The church isn’t one. I’d be happy to NEVER see G2G or Built to Last in a church leader’s office. My experience (scars included) suggests they’ve done more harm than good.
November 5th, 2006 at 11:55 pm
The monograph makes a point of saying that non-profits should not try to run like businesses, because most businesses aren’t following concepts that will lead to greatness. Collins notes that although they used businesses to identify good-to-great concepts, it was primarily because stock prices made it easy to come up with a set of guidelines to separate great companies from the rest. Collins doesn’t see the priniciples as business concepts, just that businesses were used to identify them. So in the monograph, Collins says that these priniciples can be applied to the non-profit sector, including churches. But he did rework the profit-per-unit concept (what was it called, the economic denominator?) as abviously we don’t measure ourselves by $$.
Other than that I’ve forgotten a lot of the monograph. After reading it I realized I needed to read the book and understand the concepts before I could appreciate the adjustments for the non-profit sector.
Another book worth a look is Joy at Work by Dennis Bakke. Bakke, a Christian business man, writes about the company he co-founded and the culture they created was very similar to what Collins talks about, only Bakke directly relates them to his faith, although the book is written to a secular audience.
I’m still a bit surprised by the negative reaction to church leaders using the principles of GTG. I frankly think that the church needs a good dose of a lot of what’s in there. Too many Level 4 leaders, trying to bring about change through motivation strategies and one more conference, eternal optimism about the healings and revival without any reality checks. I could go on and on. But I’m a bit jaded right now and probably not that balanced. What’s true is true no matter where it’s found. I could easily see someone trying to use the book to apply prinicples that the book is against. But then again, people do that with the Bible, too.
December 3rd, 2006 at 8:03 am
Brother maynard,
I have just stunbled to this blog and am interested in the article you refer to above.
“I’m not sure I would recommend it for anyone looking for insight specifically and only for the church… for those who just want a good overview for that purpose, read the article I linked.”
But cannot find the link. Would you be so kind as to email it to me, or post it here.
Thanks
December 3rd, 2006 at 9:16 am
Craig, it’s here; I’ve just checked and made sure it’s still live on the Fast Company website, so should work for you.