If you’re just tuning in after hearing the emerging church panel at Prov Emerging Church Conference with Gary Collins, welcome. Yes, you’re in the right place… if you’re wondering who the heck Brother Maynard is, I forgot to mention at the seminar that I blog pseudonominously. I do this for a particular reason that I’ve mentioned previously in response to the question of why. The whole anonymous thing has kind of taken on a life of its own, so I may just stick with it indefinitely…. we’ll see.
So, back to the conference…. thanks again to those who responded online and via email following my earlier question about what you’d want to say to this group. And for the benefit of those who weren’t present, the pastors and leaders conference featured Gary Collins providing some introductory material on the emerging church plus a panel discussion, which responded to questions from the floor from an ec-perspective. The panel included (mouse over the links for more info on each):
- Yours truly
- Jamie Howison
- Jamie Arpin-Ricci
- Gerry Michalski
- Bill Millar
- Lissa Wray Beal
- Kara Mandryk
- Phil Keniesel
Unfortunately Paul Vieira came up ill at the last minute this morning and couldn’t make it. The panel was a good mix, actually… all of us assembled rather last-minute and many having rearranged schedules to be there on short notice. There was no remuneration for us, but everyone was happy to participate just to be able to help provide some greater awareness of the emerging church for others as well as to extend “the conversation” and hopefully welcome some new participants.
A few of the panel members I had not met until today… I only found out who Kara was after we were seated beside one another on the platform. I met Lissa just beforehand, though in some of the conversation after the first panel session it sounds like we’re perhaps reading the same book at the moment. I also learned that Bill Millar has an “inner clown” …whatever that is, and he also has a very disarming manner when he speaks, which was a good way for him to overcome the fact he’s a United Church minister. A few quipped about not being sure why they were there, but everyone pretty much held their own and made great contributions to the general discussion. Lots of nodding on the panel, I think, whichever of us was speaking. I think I was generally happy with my own part as well as what I heard… nobody really came over as an expert with all the answers, I think we all portrayed ourselves as the mere apprentices that we are.
I mentioned some books, so thought I’d provide some links. Once I start listing books I can just keep going, but these are the ones I mentioned in the seminar.
- Postmodern Children’s Ministry: Ministry to Children in the 21st Century Church
- Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church: Understanding a Movement and Its Implications — contains some helpful analysis and observations for the emerging church, but is a poor representation of Brian McLaren’s theology and perspective… refer to primary sources, such as
- McLaren Boxed Set (A New Kind of Christian; The Story We Find Ourselves In; The Last Word and the Word After That) and
- A Generous Orthodoxy: Why I Am a Missional, Evangelical, …Emergent, Unfinished CHRISTIAN
- Blue Like Jazz: Nonreligious Thoughts on Christian Spirituality — A number of people are reading this and issuing a relieved sigh.
- Stories of Emergence: Moving from Absolute to Authentic — stories of several different emerging churches.
- The Shaping of Things to Come: Innovation and Mission for the 21 Century Church — new forms of orgainizing church, missional and incarnational instead of attractional model. This one should prove helpful to the Canadian situation, as emerging churches in Canada seem to be tending after the Australian format more closely than the American one.
In addition to the links (above) to the blogs that some of the panel members keep, I also mentioned the Beginners’ Guide at EmergingChurch.info, which includes an article by me. In that vein, the “Notable Posts” section of my sidebar includes some additional resources that should be very helpful. Also highly recommended is Rob McAlpine’s article, “Detoxing from Church” which should help provide insight into what many disillusioned believers are processing. If you’ve come here following the conference, welcome to the online conversation… please post a comment here or on any of the blogs you’ll be able to reach from these sites, and you’ll normally get a good response or two. If you’ve got a question, ask away.
On that note, I thought I’d post two questions that were handed to me between sessions. Unfortunately we didn’t get a chance to respond to these, but I did want to (really, I did!)… I thought for now I’d post the questions here. Any bloggers, particularly those who were on the panel today, please feel free to respond to them on your own blogs, and provide a link in the comments here.
- Is it working? i.e., are people coming into the Kingdom of Christ through emergent-driven ministry? Or are your “communities” filled with disenfranchised christians?
- Most of the panel have broken out of traditional settings to launch their own ministry expression. Therefore, can a traditional church be transformed into emergence? Or do the emergents need to leave?
You see what I mean? These are two great questions, deep ones which could lead to some great discussion… I’m putting them forward now to see if anyone wishes to reply, and will also try to respond here myself in a day or two.
Sorry to have missed the afternoon session. The morning I thot went well, tho I felt like someone with a learners permit teaching drivers ed. I always get a wee bit nervous too as a UC minister among a big group of evangelicals. Probably why I resort to goofy humour. . .
The 2 questions are interesting. The first has a clear assumption that working = new converts. One of the basic assumptions of the contemporary/seeker worship model is that the purpose of worship is evangelism. That’s part of the reason that many people who attend these services feel they haven’t worshipped. Worship, historically, is a function of the believers, it’s their point of connection. I’m not certain that growth in attendance at worship is an indicator of success [if so I suppose Jesus was rather a dramatic failure]. Most evangelical church growth occurs as a result of Christian migration anyways [Calvary Temple folk get tired/angry and then go to Springs]. Sometimes there’s a bit of a hiatus in the migration so it appears like post-backslider growth. Someone once said, ‘growth for growth’s sake is the ideology of a cancer cell.’ Evangelism means goodnews-ism, it’s what happens as we live our mission in the world, love the world, live connectedly to those in pain, etc. [cf. Francis of Assisi’s ‘Preach the gospel every day. If necessary, use words.]
Secondly the question seems to imply that there would be something wrong with communities growing because disenfranchised/alienated christians happen to find a community where they can reconnect with ‘church’, live faith, experience community – in an environment that is non-manipulative and open. There’s lots of them out there. Are they somehow of less value than the ‘unchurched’? I want to celebrate that a variety of disconnected folk are linking their lives to each other and Christ.
I have a bit of discomfort with the second question because it seems to assume there is a kind of ‘movement’ – and i think most of us think that’s not what this is about. However, given that, still many perhaps most of the ‘fresh expressions/missional/emerging’ communities in britain [and i think NZ/Aus] are connected in some way to a traditional church/denominations [many are C of E]. But they hae their own integrity. That’s kind of the model for us. kn/exion has links to knox, and knox is supportive of it’s growth and development, but it is not a feeder tube for knox. There is no view that the people in kn/exion will ever have any direct relationship with the knox traditional congregation. The model is one of partnership/coalition. It’s loose, not very well defined. But that seems okay for now.
thanks for doing this. . . hope to see you next week.
I really like, “nobody really came over as an expert with all the answers, I think we all portrayed ourselves as the mere apprentices that we are.” I appreciate that posture, I would have loved being there!
I don’t have time to comment on both of your questions but quickly had a thought on #1. “are people coming into the Kingdom of Christ through emergent-driven ministry”? I don’t know. Are they through the traditional evangelical church? My guess is that the numbers may be about the same (just a hunch). But of the two models who is more effectively causing people to reconsider the gospel instead of repulsing them with our spiritual arrogance? My guess is the e.c. group may be having a bit more success in this area (at least I’m hoping so). As someone who earnestly wants to represent Jesus accurately in my day to day life with people, my frequent hope and prayer is, “Please don’t let me *%!@ this up”. May not seem like a high and lofty goal but I think we’ve done a lot of damage in the name of Christianity and it will take quite a while and a lot of humble believers acting justly before more folks ever seriously consider the gospel of Jesus.
Soapbox dismount :).
blessings to you and the family…
Here are my answers:
1) By any metric the men you spoke to would understand, it is not working. But rumor has it that 4 out of 5 people on my block have experienced the love of Christ in a small, unimpressive way. Kind of like a mustard seed. My “community” is not filled with disenfranchised christians (though I have connected with several). Mostly my community is filled with real people–divorcees, fornicators, homosexuals, widowers, Baha’is, Christians, drunks, and lawyers.
2) The word “emerge” has been chosen for a reason. Implied in this word choice is emergence from something. I think that something is the traditional church.
Excellent questions. Let me weigh in.
1. I can’t help but wonder if emergent communities/individuals will serve as “rapid response relief agents” for those churches and individuals blindsided by the inevitable reality of a postmodern world, as well as by some of the failures of modernity. Now, I am not trying to say the postmodernity is like a destructive hurricane, but rather that, unprepared, even a good thing can be devastating.
I think Bill hit the nail on the head on this question very well, in that he affirmed that the disenfranchised believer is no less important than the “unchurched”. If the Church is meant to represent the missional community to the world, rather than the church building being the locus of all faith, then these Christians are crucial to the ministry of the Church.
Last night I took our staff through a process of exploring the nature and power of community. Through reflection on our past (most good and bad), we all realized how powerful a representation of the Gospel can be found in truly transparent and authentic communities of faith.
Being that the ministry that I am a part of is not a “church”, even by most emergent standards, the second question is challenging for me to answer. The majority of the young people who come through our discipleship experience leave to return to traditional churches. Most of them share a sense of disconnect on going back, which we are endeavouring not to create. However, as we truly journey together into Christlikeness with them, this seems a somewhat inevitable result.
I have often wondered, then, if there can be intentional relationships built with the communities of faith out of which these students come. Some are open, though good intentions fall by the way most often. Others aren’t interest- often just indifferent. Others, the minority, would be opposed to such a relationship.
So our young people are faced with a difficult decision: They can return to their home churches and try to change them from within, a task unfair and overwhelming for an individual. They can return and just “go with the flow”, which usually leaves them disillusioned, frustrated and even angry with us for ruining the ordinary for them. They can leave their church in search of a more emergent one. Should not be available (which is often the case) they simply drop off the church map (which is tough). They could join our community, which we are often ill equipped or even not called to pursue.
For those students in Winnipeg, I am increasingly pleased at the options I can offer them. However, since few of our students are local, it can be a challenge.
Peace,
Jamie
After a day in bed for rest and a time to reflect it is time for me to add my two cents worth…or a ramble as the words and emotion now flows.
Prior to the Prov conference I was fortunate to be at the King’s Fold Retreat Centre in Alberta with 25 other leaders from Canada and Leonard Sweet. What a time of discourse and dialogue, not only with the “Sweetness� himself but also with all the others who are journeying through this world that we live in…that have the same questions and mindset. (I hope that I am not out of line when I say that)
I came off the plane running to help (in a small way) to make sure my ends were covered with the Prov conference. On the Sunday night we (members of our community) put on a worship gathering that was to ‘represent’ the ‘emergent church.’ Now think about that…our form represents an entire ‘movement’…rrrrrrrrrrrright, I am sure that one panel member would love to hear that, simply because we LOVE powerpoint! (JK)
On Sunday night before we even got started I got ripped by someone who didn’t appreciate that everything was so “loud� and they were not very happy with my response to the question of “Can you turn down the volume?�
Anyway, with that burden hanging on my heart (the simple fact that someone was offended) we began our SERVICE. I call it a service because for the first 15-20 minutes people were not only shocked…but were obviously watching the “show.� It took some time but eventually people understood that they were there to worship GOD and they began to enter in. By the end, it was a beautiful thing as we spent the rest of the evening breaking bread.
In the inner recesses of my heart, I so desperately want the established church to recognize what we are doing as a good thing, but we have always had to fight….yes fight my brothers and my sisters in Christ because we choose to do church in a different way.
And let’s be real honest here…what we do is NOT a NEW thing or method. It is what has been wrestling in me for years and finally I am putting flesh on the bones on my mind!!!!
Prior to Monday I tried so hard to get a variety of expressions of the ec community…people who may “think the same way on 60% of things, that are ok with 30% but disagree with 10%.� The panel itself reflected that really well…so I thought anyway.
I was even happy with the morning expression and Oldbill kept me laughing!!! But, I was concerned with the afternoon.
Personally, I felt as if I showed my ‘spiritual underwear’ and in that, it was not just dirty but embarrassing. Being open with strangers who not only speak a different language than I do, view the world differently that myself, but also live in a world that I choose not to live in anymore or hold to the same values…add to that feeling that I had to try to convince people who not know me or what I do that I DO preach the ‘gospel’ or pray for GOD to move in people’s lives (revival)…I personally, when it is all said and done…I felt that I should have just shut my mouth! Especially when I asked myself the question “Why did I even say that?� Hey hindsight is 20/20.
My hope of this conference was this…
People paid to learn……wow…..they paid to learn and they were in attendance and they want to know what some other believers are thinking. I do not pretend that people will understand, nor do I expect them to (yes I do), but at least people left thinking. I met with 2 pastors yesterday as we processed the conference and what they heard and specifically how we (Soul Sanctuary) do church. Tomorrow, I meet with another pastor who is processing the whole thing and wants to know more. It has opened huge doors of discussion and to that I am thankful. I also realize that not everyone will like, agree, and some will even condemn, but I will have to live with that.
I am tired, spiritually drained…but I love what I do…and would not change it for the world!
Be Blessed!
Wow, Soulpastor, I soooo felt the honesty there coming stright from your heart, and I also heard your love for the “Church” (Big C). I wasn’t there of course, but monetheless I thank you for baring your soul there and here, so that we can hear the heart of a practitioner who wants the real and not merely the cosmetic or latest “formulas.” A worthy comment, sir.
Peace
Bill:
Thanks for these reflections here. The humour was very disarming, a great way to build some comfort between the crowd and the panel as well as with you directly. Good thoughts on these two questions.
MC:
Good thoughts, this is why you shoulda been on the panel ;^) btw, we did get onto an extended tangent about cussing, which we could probably have done without except that it brought up a couple of good issues to discuss as well.
Bob:
Excellent caveat, quite the list of “real people,” enough to make most church people exceedingly nervous. I agree on the emerging-from-what question… I think the traditional/institutional church was in one fashion an incubator for the emerging church.
Jamie:
The whole question of trying to change the “home churches” is a tough one… it’s the one every bright-eyed student keeps in mind as in ideal when they return “home” from the short-term mission trip or from Bible College. If you know what to look for and have a good vantage point, you really can watch the light go out. This one is a hard question, and one which does bear more discussion in the “where do we go from here” context.
SP:
Just, “wow.” Thanks for your transparency on the panel and here. I think on the panel you showed some of your heart, and how close to the surface some of this stuff is… which came off well I think as an indicator that we aren’t all about coffee, couches, and candles… there really is stuff under the hood, deep heartfelt stuff. Passions. There were a few moments on the panel there where I think you communicated stuff that can’t be explained, and probably will go a long way toward ‘humanizing’ the emerging church for many of the conference attendees.
A:
Peace to you also; hope all is well with you.
I’m hoping to post some thoughts on the two questions sometime this weekend… I’ve been swamped lately, so we’ll see how that goes!