Seems the nice folks at Forge in Australia have released a position paper written on their behalf by Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch of TSOTTC fame. The paper is a response to D.A. Carson’s Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church, which is substantially a criticism of Brian McLaren. Carson’s book was originally titled “Becoming Conversant with Emergent” which in fact better describes the book, since he really only addresses one or two authors and not the emerging church as a whole. But then we’re into the whole terminology thing again — and of course this is all Bob Hyatt needs to have another go at an Emergent name change. The position paper is titled “Don Carson and the Australian Missional Church Movement: A Forge response to Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church” and is available (in pdf) from links in blog coverage by Hamo (Backyard Missionaries) and by Andrew (TallSkinnyKiwiw) Jones; I’ve [mirrored the .pdf document here] to provide a wee bit of bandwith sharing from a North American server. **(See comment below for this link.)
Now, with all that said, let’s note that there is some fallout from this — you can review the comments in the posts just listed to get the gist of it. Newly-minted Emergent (EV) National Coordinator Tony Jones gives it the “thumbs-down”, saying, “When a group like Forge distances themselves from Emergent, I am quite sure that it does more harm than good, and I am afraid that they are letting Emergent’s critics define who/what Emergent is rather than being involved with the conversation on its own terms.” and concludes with, “I continue to believe that position papers that draw lines within the emerging church, taking sides for and against organizations, and the like will be supremely unhelpful, and I ask people to please STOP IT.” (See comments in loc. cit.). Hamo responds to Tony Jones with “I have to disagree with you that the clarifying of positions is an inherently bad thing for us, or that we need to ‘STOP IT’. It does in fact force each of us to grapple with our identity and to engage more thoroughly with each other.” And for the record, the position paper explicity states that Forge’s purpose in writing is not to distance themselves from Emergent (EV)… so they’re certainly not drawing lines against Emergent (EV).
Well. Istm that Forge is trying to say that although they are missional and are a new form of church, and may even be called an emerging church, it should not be assumed that they hold the views criticized by DA Carson, as Carson is dealing with only a subset of the emerging church. With this I agree fully.
Forge might have taken the trouble to point out that DA Carson misrepresents Brian McLaren as well (as McLaren has stated in public interviews), but it’s not their job to do so, and they are under no obligation to do so. The matter of Carson’s criticism of McLaren has been addressed by others, and a collective response to criticisms has also been issued by McLaren and others on behalf of Emergent… so while it appears that Forge is distancing themselves, this perception is, I think, a little overstated. Whether it could have been clearer or not, perhaps they could have said, “Hey, we aren’t the kind of group that Carson is criticising… and by the way, neither is Emergent.” But if Emergent (EV) wishes to see a better response to Carson, they should commission and release one.
As Jordan Cooper opines, we’d do a lot better to just talk to one another. And listen. I still like Frost & Hirsch; they are an insightful pair, and I understand why Forge does not want to be dragged into a largely American battle over the emerging church… and they seem to be responding to a particular situation which they are facing. If this position paper truly comes out of the blue as it seems to, it’s somewhat unfortunate. On the other hand, Tony’s comments seem to me a bit hasty as well. Inasmuch as Forge might have spoken to Emergent about their forthcoming statement, Emergent might also do well to speak with Forge before responding publicly.
Darryl Dash has already posted an update on the discussion, unfolding at the slender vertical bird’s blog (already linked); he concludes his quoting from the discussion with the observation, “The real question seems to be what type of public debate is acceptable over issues (not personalities) within the emerging church – a seemingly important question for something that claims to be a conversation. After all, McLaren’s books are a “position paper” of sorts (position papers don’t have to be against someone or something).”
In the meantime, perhaps the best that can be, or could have been, said is this:
DA Carson has written an exhaustive critique, and he has some helpful things to say. Unfortunately, his critique focuses on a small number of individuals within one expression of the emerging church, and the views they hold have to some extent been misrepresented in his critique. As such, the various expressions of the emerging church around the globe should not be assumed to fall generally or specifically within the critiques that Carson levels. Instead, those seeking to understand particular expressions of the emerging church should query members of that expression directly for an accurate reflection of their beliefs and practises.
Update: As requested by Alan Hirsch, Hamo, and Forge (kinda), I have de-linked the original pdf of this paper while they resolve some questions and perhaps amend their statement or issue a clarification. On all of this I say Kudos to Forge, whose stock goes up over this in my view. Do be sure and read the link just provided, and stay tuned…
Subscribe Posts
July 24th, 2005 at 2:41 pm
McLaren’s input? He’s since deleted the post. 9.25 am Andrew Hamilton places an apology from Alan Hirsch and withdraws the pdf. 9.43 am Subversive Influence post 4.30 pm I finally get to read the document I’d printed out earlier. I post something here and then discover the conversation’s
July 24th, 2005 at 1:21 am
base for new forms of church, and everything else is a departure, which is a little presumptuous and US-centric. Hamo reflects some more Subversive Influence chimes in Bob Hyatt sees another renaming of the EC or Emergent coming down the pike because of all the criticism associated with
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:05 am
good fences make good neighbors…as long as they are a definitive place to meet (remember wilson and tim the tool man) instead of a barrier to keep apart. [IMG]it seems like everyone knows the lines are there, but no one wants to admit it. can’t people say, “i agree with you on this and
September 9th, 2006 at 6:51 am
[IMG Subscribe (RSS)]Nathan Colquhoun [IMG Subscribe (RSS)]Pernell Goodyear [IMG Subscribe (RSS)]Pomomusings [IMG Subscribe (RSS)]TallSkinnyKiwi [IMG Subscribe (RSS)]The Journey [IMG Subscribe (RSS)]TheBolgBlog [IMG Subscribe (RSS)]Subversive Influence [IMG Subscribe (RSS)]Way Out West
July 21st, 2005 at 8:50 pm
Hi Bro
Could you check out my latest post on this and do what you feel is appropriate?
http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2005/07/forge-carson.html
Thanks
Hamo
July 21st, 2005 at 8:53 pm
I love your last paragraph.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:03 pm
Note – Daryl’s comment slid in just before my “Update” paragraph, so that’s the “last” paragraph to which he refers.
You guys are quick on the draw — veteran bloggers!
July 21st, 2005 at 9:11 pm
he keeps going, and going, and going… :)
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:04 am
i just took my link off also
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:27 am
To be honest….I wonder if it is really necessary to bother. It seems that christians always have problems with other christians…and then we become fixated on the fine detail. The peoples of Africa still starve….postmoderns still have the wrong perception of God….the ‘need’ hasn’t gone away!
In the end we can hung up on detail and still agree that we are brothers and sisters…all saved… all on a journey of transformation….. that leads to works in Him… that bring people into a saving experience of Christ!
I (as many do) have issue with some of contemporary christianity and yet I will embrace my christian adversaries as intimate family.
Perhaps there is is need to engage Don Carson, but let’s do it personally, not across the internet. In the end we must be true to the revelation given to us.
I think that we should simply continue in the revelation given to us. Any correspondence to Don should be personal to him. And if he doesn’t agree…well he continues to be an intimate brother and mate who at this stage, doesn’t see it the way we do and still his worldview remains acurate for those he preaches to and as thus is valid….big deal !!
Don has some great teachings but may well miss this stage in history. Let’s not get stuck in potential justifications and simply DO IT..
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:41 am
There is good discussion and basic resolution over at the TSK post on the subject — recommend updated reading there; notable posts from Alan Hirsch and Tony Jones.
So we’re all agreed, then… everybody is (jointly and severally) distancing themselves from the caricature that DA Carson criticized — including Brian McLaren, who isn’t fairly represented by the caricature.
To quote The Bard, “All’s well that ends well.” Perhaps it’s just slightly premature to say so, but this has all the forebodings of a good ending.
Garth,
Don Carson has afaik not been willing to dialogue. He chose the course of public debate through published writings, but has not answered any of the responses, so it seems a bit disingenuous on his part… but it does mean that responses to Carson must be done in a public forum through the release of statements and papers, as Forge has done. I do hope we’ll see an amended statement from Forge that meets their (quite understandable) objective without offending the Emergent (EV) folk.
July 22nd, 2005 at 6:24 pm
This whole thing reminds me of the “centered set” analogy that the Vineyard had to look at back in the day. I had downloaded the PDF earlier today, so I had a chance to read it, but I won’t be commenting on it here or at my blog. In fact, I just “trashed” the PDF off my computer — seemed to be the proper thing to do!
I did post something on “centered sets”, though, if you’re interested.
BTW, the conversation in the comments at Tall Skinny Kiwi is an amazing example of how people should be dialoguing online. Heat and light, and not a little fruit. HT’s all around.
August 13th, 2005 at 11:40 am
Lies and Damn Lies and the Christianity-Industrial Complex
Beware the power of the Christianity-Industrial Complex.
In recent weeks, the heat has been turned up by evangelicals and theologians on the just simmering pot that is Emerging Church. During the ensuing storm, Brian McLaren has taken most of the strike
February 17th, 2006 at 6:44 pm
[...] Friday July 22 1.16 Steve McCoy of Reformisssionary posts on Drawing Lines. and again at Emerging SBC Leaders. 2.09 am Stephen Shields gives his commentary at Emergesque. 9.20 am Jordon Cooper points out that despite advanced technology, we do a lousy job of talking to each other. What might have happened if Carson had sat down and talked with McLaren? What might Frost and Hirsch’s paper looked like if they’d included McLaren’s input? He’s since deleted the post. 9.25 am Andrew Hamilton places an apology from Alan Hirsch and withdraws the pdf. 9.43 am Subversive Influence post 4.30 pm I finally get to read the document I’d printed out earlier. I post something here and then discover the conversation’s happened already. I delete the post when I get home later in the evening. [...]
July 28th, 2008 at 12:50 am
[...] the post. 9.25 am Andrew Hamilton places an apology from Alan Hirsch and withdraws the pdf. 9.43 am Subversive Influence post 4.30 pm I finally get to read the document I’d printed out earlier. I post something here and [...]